Keir Starmer - FoM now a red-line

[Boroboyyo]

You've really fallen for the anti immigration pogrom haven't you? That's the tragic thing here. Starmer has to appeal to the bigots because the message to hate asylum seekers has been so powerful

How is that bigotry and racism ? I’ve merely quoted what our population is forecast to be and the make up of what our land mass is used for in the uk .

Nothing on demographics . I have no problem at all with immigration if it’s for skills we need . Are you seriously that incapable of debate you raise any genuine concerns as “bigotry “?

What have I said that’s wrong ? Our pollution levels going up ,more land needed for farming and housing ? These things will naturally need to be raised the more the population goes up

I voted remain . But there are still valid concerns about immigration numbers . Sticking your fingers in your ears about these issues is not going to make it go away

 

[MolteniArcore]

The charitable status is a bit of an odd one

He’s going to annoy a lot of well of people with that yet just when you think he’s right wing he does something like that

It's a very small % of people who pay for private education (5% just quoted on LBC) and you'd think a smaller % of those would be Labour voters. It's a decent policy for not much loss at the ballot box. Plays nicely to the narrative of Tories looking after the rich too.

 

[SuperStu]

You've really fallen for the anti immigration pogrom haven't you?

Pogrom?! I feel like you might not realise what that word means ST.

 

[SuperStu]

No, I was incredulous that BBG chose to blame Labour, solely, for what the current tory government have done.

Well that's not true. Unless you're saying you were blaming "any vote that isn't aimed at getting rid of tories" solely.

No he wasn't right. There was a grain of truth at best. Labour didn't loose all those seats in 2019 due to in-fighting.

A grain at best? See my post #51 again. Sitting Labour MPs were actually going round telling voters to vote tory. It's outrageous. Imagine the reaction if a member of the SCG were doing that now.

They lost them because of Corbyn's scattergun approach to policy. It was uncosted

Weird criticism. Both the 2017 and 2019 Labour manifestos came with a costing document - which is more than Labour have ever done before.

and nobody really trusted him with the economy, and probably the countries security.

And what, he existed in a vacuum? This is tied up with the in-fighting, of course.

Jesus Labour under Corbyn did not have to agree to the 2019 GE, agreed along with the rest.

They didn't have to, but I'm not sure what doing the opposite would have achieved. The SNP and Lib Dems had already agreed to the election - so the tories had the numbers to make it happen irrespective of what Labour did. Would headlines saying for instance; "Labour are scared of an election", or "Labour vote to keep tories in government", have done anything to help gain support? I doubt it.

 

[SmallTown]

Pogrom?! I feel like you might not realise what that word means ST.

I do to be fair. Do you it think the government is having a protracted campaign of hate against asylum seekers? Sure we’re only at the “loaded language” and dehumanisation of them but look how bad it is: people think they are an enemy:l. The government is using words like illegal and invasion and trying to pitch asylum seekers as an invading force. It’s a bit worrying tbh

 

[SmallTown]

How is that bigotry and racism ? I’ve merely quoted what our population is forecast to be and the make up of what our land mass is used for in the uk .

Nothing on demographics . I have no problem at all with immigration if it’s for skills we need . Are you seriously that incapable of debate you raise any genuine concerns as “bigotry “?

What have I said that’s wrong ? Our pollution levels going up ,more land needed for farming and housing ? These things will naturally need to be raised the more the population goes up

I voted remain . But there are still valid concerns about immigration numbers . Sticking your fingers in your ears about these issues is not going to make it go away

You’ve fallen for the inflated conversation about immigration. You are ignoring actual figures of immigration and how slight they are compared to other countries.

 

[Laughing]

Well that's not true. Unless you're saying you were blaming "any vote that isn't aimed at getting rid of tories" solely.



A grain at best? See my post #51 again. Sitting Labour MPs were actually going round telling voters to vote tory. It's outrageous. Imagine the reaction if a member of the SCG were doing that now.



Weird criticism. Both the 2017 and 2019 Labour manifestos came with a costing document - which is more than Labour have ever done before.



And what, he existed in a vacuum? This is tied up with the in-fighting, of course.



They didn't have to, but I'm not sure what doing the opposite would have achieved. The SNP and Lib Dems had already agreed to the election - so the tories had the numbers to make it happen irrespective of what Labour did. Would headlines saying for instance; "Labour are scared of an election", or "Labour vote to keep tories in government", have done anything to help gain support? I doubt it.

I can't be bothered going through that a point at a time. Let's address a couple. Where the waspie women payouts costed?

You and bbg really want to blame a handful of Labour mp's for the size of that 2019 loss? Well OK I guess. I still voted Labour I didn't care about the infighting and, most likely the electorate didn't care either.

They would have noticed Corbyn trying to buy votes mid campaign. They would have noticed his skipping around anti semitism. They would have heard him say he would struggle to use a nuclear deterrent. I could go on. Oh and BTW it doesn't matter whether I agree with a nuclear deterrent or not, frothing at the mouth morons do and there are plenty of them.

Corbyn was a disaster for lots of reasons in 2019.

 

[BlindBoyGrunt]

Oh here we go, you again.

What, I'm not allowed to post on threads I'm quite interested in?

You need to take your own advice Borofur.

 

[BlindBoyGrunt]

Really, that's your takeaway?

I blame the current lot for the state that the nation is in, and i blame various Labour MP's and NEC members for doing all they could to put them there. I agree with you that picking a party isn't like picking a football team and after viewing the Lobby, the Labour Files, the leaked labour papers and the Forde report, I see a party that is financed by Israel Lobbyists, that is corrupt and racist from top to bottom, that is interfering with the selection of election candidates and that expelling/suspending left wing jews for being anti-Semitic (imagine the pain). I don't see a lot to love.

 

[Laughing]

I blame the current lot for the state that the nation is in, and i blame various Labour MP's and NEC members for doing all they could to put them there. I agree with you that picking a party isn't like picking a football team and after viewing the Lobby, the Labour Files, the leaked labour papers and the Forde report, I see a party that is financed by Israel Lobbyists, that is corrupt and racist from top to bottom, that is interfering with the selection of election candidates and that expelling/suspending left wing jews for being anti-Semitic (imagine the pain). I don't see a lot to love.

And I don't disagree with most of what you have said. Firstly, where we are is the tories doing. Secondly, I would argue that politics is a bloody dirty business, moneys involved, so that is no surprise. We still have what we have to choose from. Which party is the least corrupt, has the most integrity and the best policies should be how we choose, not which is perfect, or even fit for purpose. We have a fptp system that engenders the politics we see.

 

[SuperStu]

Where the waspie women payouts costed?

Where was any other policy in any other manifesto costed? Like I say, weird thing to criticise them about.

 

[BoroFur]

You need to take your own advice Borofur.

View attachment 48433

I really cannot be bothered with you BBG or indeed take you seriously.

 

[Laughing]

Where was any other policy in any other manifesto costed? Like I say, weird thing to criticise them about.

its not weird when the electoral view, rightly or wrongly is that the tories are better with the economy. You have to overcome that

 

[SuperStu]

Which party is the least corrupt, has the most integrity and the best policies should be how we choose

Fair enough.

But current Labour is led by a guy who had a list of 10 pledges to be elected as leader, and has since gone back on all 10 of them. He lied. Since then he's stitched up the leadership election rules to lock the left out of ever having a chance to lead, and he's currently stitching up candidate selections to make sure the left can't even have backbenchers. His first week as leader he tried to hide a document from publication which showed that the party's top staff (edit - who he later paid off in an out of court settlement on a case the party's lawyers were saying the party would win) were secretly sabotaging the party all along and had been hiding money in secret accounts. One of the saboteurs is married to the MP who just happened to have a private phone call released days before the 2019 election talking the party down. He's in the shadow cabinet now. Starmer's choice for shadow chancellor is the MP who made herself famous saying Labour would be more tory than the tories.

So corruption, no integrity and sh*t policies? Full house.

 

[BlindBoyGrunt]

And I don't disagree with most of what you have said. Firstly, where we are is the tories doing. Secondly, I would argue that politics is a bloody dirty business, moneys involved, so that is no surprise. We still have what we have to choose from. Which party is the least corrupt, has the most integrity and the best policies should be how we choose, not which is perfect, or even fit for purpose. We have a fptp system that engenders the politics we see.

I understand that, Laughing but with some people on this site, there is less tolerance for former Labour supporters who may vote independent or green this time around, than there is for people who actually vote Tory which i find strange

I will be basing my decision at the next election on what the Labour party should be and what they actually are, and the gulf is too great.

 

[BoroFur]

Former Labour voters voting Green or Independent isn't an issue for me. Heck, they could vote Lib Dem and I wouldn't be that upset. It's not voting at all that I don't understand. Of course everyone is entitled to vote (or not vote) as they please, that is the fundamental basis of an effective democracy. But, wanting to effect change for the better is everyone's hope isn't it? Voting Independent might get some potholes fixed in your street but it's never going to effect any meaningful change.

And I don't agree that Tory voters on this board are tolerated more than former Labour voters, I've never seen any evidence of that at all.

Rightly or wrongly, the political and economic system aspired to by Socialists is just a utopian pipe dream. It will never happen, not just in this country but in any progressive envitronment.

It does make me despair that folk with essentially the same Left/Left leaning poliitics cannot unite behind the Party just at the time when the Right wing of British politics is imploding.

 

[Laughing]

I understand that, Laughing but with some people on this site, there is less tolerance for former Labour supporters who may vote independent or green this time around, than there is for people who actually vote Tory which i find strange

I will be basing my decision at the next election on what the Labour party should be and what they actually are, and the gulf is too great.

I have no problem with someone voting however they see fit BBG. I am one of the few people on here who thinks a decent opposition to labour is vital whilst we have fptp. I do take a bit of umbrage at folks claiming that labour are no better than the tories, or they are just as right wing. They are not and that stifles decent debate. I don't like Starmer much myself.

 

[Laughing]

Fair enough.

But current Labour is led by a guy who had a list of 10 pledges to be elected as leader, and has since gone back on all 10 of them. He lied. Since then he's stitched up the leadership election rules to lock the left out of ever having a chance to lead, and he's currently stitching up candidate selections to make sure the left can't even have backbenchers. His first week as leader he tried to hide a document from publication which showed that the party's top staff (edit - who he later paid off in an out of court settlement on a case the party's lawyers were saying the party would win) were secretly sabotaging the party all along and had been hiding money in secret accounts. One of the saboteurs is married to the MP who just happened to have a private phone call released days before the 2019 election talking the party down. He's in the shadow cabinet now. Starmer's choice for shadow chancellor is the MP who made herself famous saying Labour would be more tory than the tories.

So corruption, no integrity and sh*t policies? Full house.

I am not arguing with that. Meanwhile across the house the tories are led by someone who watched over billions of pounds in fraud handed out as furlough payments and billions in dodgy PPE contracts. He also i son record as saying how he has directed funds from needy urban areas to the wealthier shires.

Someone who's wife was non-dom and not paying tax whilst austerity was raging through the country. The same PM who stood behind removing the cap on bankers bonuses whilst a 92 year old man was seen front of his house crying and calling for someone to help him because he had no food.

He wasn't the PM who declared "Let the bodied F***ing pile up, we are not having another lockdown"

He isn't the PM who created a 50 billion uncosted blackhole in our finances whilst giving tax breaks to the rich whilst nurses go cold and hungry.

They are not the same as the tories, not by a long way.

 

[BlindBoyGrunt]

Rightly or wrongly, the political and economic system aspired to by Socialists is just a utopian pipe dream. It will never happen, not just in this country but in any progressive envitronment.

What Corbyn and his supporters were pitching was something similar to Denmark or even Germany which of course is achievable.

 

[Boroboyyo]

You’ve fallen for the inflated conversation about immigration. You are ignoring actual figures of immigration and how slight they are compared to other countries.

Compared to who ?

Germanys population seems relatively stable compared to ours and is forecast to reduce in population over time . It also has more land mass than us

France also has significantly more land mass than us , yes it’s population is increasing , but is more manageable with a bigger place

Italy also has less land mass than us

Add to the fact the people who come to the uk particularly focus on England . Scotland’s population has largely remained the same for a long time

Rather than point to “anti immigration hysteria “ post your facts please . Last time I checked , net migration was roughly 300,000 per year . That is roughly a medium sized city coming in each year . I haven’t posted anything anti immigrant , I’m merely pointing such drastic increases can impact infrastructure.That movement isn’t small and quite frankly comparing to other countries isn’t really relevant anyway when other factors are at play besides numbers