Keir Starmer - FoM now a red-line

[festa5]

So those Blairite Labour MPs and NEC members have a lot of blood on their hands then.

Yeah, you could argue they do.

Do two wrongs make a right though?

I get the anger and annoyance. It's not right and it's not fair that those MPs who undermined Corbyn and quite possibly made the difference between labour winning one of the last couple of elections are probably going to get their way with a centrist labour government.

Those MPs are responsible for enabling this Tory government. In a perfect world there'd be some reckoning for it (there kind of has been, because I doubt any reckoned on the Tories being this bad/extreme. But we're all suffering for them being ideological idiots).

It's a not a perfect world though. We're in a terrible position as a country where our leading politicians are either inept, corrupt or weak. The country simply cannot afford another Tory government, it's as simple as that. It will cost more lives, push more people into poverty and remove even more freedoms. That should be blindingly obvious to anyone paying attention.

The only way to remove them is Labour. I don't think they'll be brilliant. I think they're probably too timid although that is driven by an understandable fear of the right wing media. No matter how underwhelming they might be though, they'll be significantly better than the current mafia in charge (a low bar admittedly).

At the minute we just need to stop the bleeding. Urgently.

I think there are some on the left so bitter (and I do get it) that they'd rather see the country burn than have those they see as traitors get into power. They can tell themselves it's because "Starmer is no different" or "nothing will change" but I do wonder how many truly believe it.

That's their choice of course, but some probably need to be honest with themselves that it's a decision driven by spite or revenge to make them feel better. It's not one that's going to help anyone.

 

[Laughing]

So those Blairite Labour MPs and NEC members have a lot of blood on their hands then.

Really, that's your takeaway?

 

[SuperStu]

They’d happily not vote him and ‘stick to their principles’ and be culpable to more austerity.

We'll be getting more austerity either way won't we? Reeves hates poor people, she'll be as boneheaded and horrible as any tory chancellor would be.

 

[SuperStu]

Do two wrongs make a right though?

I get the anger and annoyance. It's not right and it's not fair ...

I think there are some on the left so bitter (and I do get it) that they'd rather see the country burn than have those they see as traitors get into power. They can tell themselves it's because "Starmer is no different" or "nothing will change" but I do wonder how many truly believe it.

That's their choice of course, but some probably need to be honest with themselves that it's a decision driven by spite or revenge to make them feel better. It's not one that's going to help anyone.

@festa5 I genuinely disagree. I don't think incrementalism works. I think we've seen that demonstrated in the country for decades now. It just gives us a ratchet effect where both parties of government and the country move further and further to the right. There's some on here that talk about getting in to power first, and then moving the country left over 20, 30, 40 years. It's insane for two reasons.

1) They're banking on the Labour party suddenly winning elections for decades, and the tories being out for as long. If there's one thing we should all know about the tories by now it's that they will find a way to sneak themselves back in. It's inevitable.

2) The right of the Labour party despise the left. Starmers office have intervened in about 50 candidate selections already ahead of the next general elections to ensure CLPs can't select left wing candidates. If the right spend all their time locking left wing people out of any positions of influence in the party, then who exactly would ever lead a move to the left after the party is in power? It won't just happen on it's own, someone actually needs to be there to do it. And the Corbyn years have shown us the resistance they'll face across the press and politics so it'd need to be somebody with real convictions to drive those changes.

 

[SuperStu]

I saw recently on the news a 5 year old boy died of pneumonia when it was perfectly treatable because the nhs is on its knees. This winter the tory cost in human life is going to be huge. During the pandemic 10s of thousands died needlessly, nhs workers without ppe are now suffering long Covid and are still not back at work.

And yet Wes Streeting is now regularly telling us he wants to go further privatising the NHS.

 

[MolteniArcore]

1) They're banking on the Labour party suddenly winning elections for decades, and the tories being out for as long. If there's one thing we should all know about the tories by now it's that they will find a way to sneak themselves back in. It's inevitable.

2) The right of the Labour party despise the left. Starmers office have intervened in about 50 candidate selections already ahead of the next general elections to ensure CLPs can't select left wing candidates. If the right spend all their time locking left wing people out of any positions of influence in the party, then who exactly would ever lead a move to the left after the party is in power? It won't just happen on it's own, someone actually needs to be there to do it. And the Corbyn years have shown us the resistance they'll face across the press and politics so it'd need to be somebody with real convictions to drive those changes.

1 - I haven't heard any Labour supporters banking on this. Personally I think Labour will get one or two terms max. Starmer is no Blair.

2 - Couldn't care less about Labour in-fighting and I'd guess 95% of people who will vote for Labour in the next GE will either. It is an issue that currently only the left of the LP care about I'd think, previous under JC it was an issue the centre of the LP were bothered about.

It's time for a change and I think most people are happy to give Starmer a go.

 

[SuperStu]

Really, that's your takeaway?

Two former Labour MPs urge voters to back Boris Johnson

Ian Austin and John Woodcock both say Jeremy Corbyn is not fit to become prime minister

www.theguardian.com

Dugdale faces backlash after urging Scots to vote Tory to keep SNP out

SCOTTISH Labour Party leader Kezia Dugdale faced a stinging backlash after encouraging people north of the border to vote Conservative to keep Nicola Sturgeon’s SNP out.

www.express.co.uk

Now I don't know about you or anyone else, for that matter, but any vote that isn't aimed at getting rid of tories who murdered that little boy and thousands beside him and then use arguments like "tory lite **** holes" isn't really understanding the situation.

Oway @Laughing, fairs fair. You can't slate random boro fans on the internet with criticisms of the Labour leadership and then act like there wasn't Labour MPs actively campaigning for people to vote tory under the last leadership.

 

[SuperStu]

2 - Couldn't care less about Labour in-fighting and I'd guess 95% of people who will vote for Labour in the next GE will either. It is an issue that currently only the left of the LP care about I'd think, previous under JC it was an issue the centre of the LP were bothered about.

I'm not saying 95% of people will care about it. I'm explaining that this is why incrementalism doesn't work.

 

[festa5]

@festa5 I genuinely disagree. I don't think incrementalism works. I think we've seen that demonstrated in the country for decades now. It just gives us a ratchet effect where both parties of government and the country move further and further to the right. There's some on here that talk about getting in to power first, and then moving the country left over 20, 30, 40 years. It's insane for two reasons.

1) They're banking on the Labour party suddenly winning elections for decades, and the tories being out for as long. If there's one thing we should all know about the tories by now it's that they will find a way to sneak themselves back in. It's inevitable.

2) The right of the Labour party despise the left. Starmers office have intervened in about 50 candidate selections already ahead of the next general elections to ensure CLPs can't select left wing candidates. If the right spend all their time locking left wing people out of any positions of influence in the party, then who exactly would ever lead a move to the left after the party is in power? It won't just happen on it's own, someone actually needs to be there to do it. And the Corbyn years have shown us the resistance they'll face across the press and politics so it'd need to be somebody with real convictions to drive those changes.

All fair points Stu. I mean I don't know is my honest answer, I can see merit to what you're saying. I don't know what the answer (PR maybe?) but agree fundamental changes to our politics are needed.

GE in 2 years though. We are where we are. Very likely it'll be a choice between Starmers labour and the Tories. Who should people vote for?

 

[SuperStu]

Very likely it'll be a choice between Starmers labour and the Tories. Who should people vote for?

That's the part I can't answer. Honestly to me, as a country we've missed our chances to change course. It doesn't really matter who people vote for now cause we're on a conveyer belt anyway. The country will look broadly the same in 10 years time whether we put the red, blue or yellow team tories in charge.

There was a 24 year gap between Attlee and Foot being Labour leaders. And then a 32 year gap between Foot and Corbyn. So maybe we'll get another chance to vote for a change around 2059?

 

[Laughing]

Two former Labour MPs urge voters to back Boris Johnson

Ian Austin and John Woodcock both say Jeremy Corbyn is not fit to become prime minister

www.theguardian.com

Dugdale faces backlash after urging Scots to vote Tory to keep SNP out

SCOTTISH Labour Party leader Kezia Dugdale faced a stinging backlash after encouraging people north of the border to vote Conservative to keep Nicola Sturgeon’s SNP out.

www.express.co.uk

Oway @Laughing, fairs fair. You can't slate random boro fans on the internet with criticisms of the Labour leadership and then act like there wasn't Labour MPs actively campaigning for people to vote tory under the last leadership.

And if those MP's were on this board I'd be giving them a hard time too. I don't see your point? Because someones a d*ck, we all should be? Is that what you want me to buy into?

I also don't really care about left v right. Neither works. You need good policies, some will be socialist, some will be capitalist. Brian Cox talks about this often and quotes, I think Feynman. He says that Physics makes you hold mutually exclusive ideas in your head, at the same time. Politicians would do well to learn from this.

Picking a party isn't picking a football team. You should never describe yourself as a labour supporter, nor a conservative supporter. We should all be balancing the policies we like from a party against the ones we don't. That's what should determine where your cross goes on your ballot paper, not the colour of the rosette, nor left or right. These are just labels that, both parties use to get people "onside".

The only thing that matters are who has the best manifesto and who can you trust the most to deliver on that covenant.

 

[SuperStu]

And if those MP's were on this board I'd be giving them a hard time too. I don't see your point? Because someones a d*ck, we all should be? Is that what you want me to buy into?

Not at all. You had a post saying everyone should be trying to get rid of tories. BBG replied to say the Blairite MPs that did the opposite had a lot to answer for. You replied to that with a "really?!" type of message like you were incredulous that anyone could hold a grudge against those MPs.

My point was just to show that BBG was absolutely right in what he was saying. Rather than me saying everyone should be a d*ck, obviously I'd have much preferred that the centrists had gotten behind the party 2015-2019. Who knows what might havve happened as a result?

 

[SuperStu]

Picking a party isn't picking a football team.

I agree with this though

But have to say re: the Brian Cox quote, who cares what he thinks? People for some reason get this idea that scientists musings on things other than their field should hold weight. I don't buy it.

 

[Laughing]

Not at all. You had a post saying everyone should be trying to get rid of tories. BBG replied to say the Blairite MPs that did the opposite had a lot to answer for. You replied to that with a "really?!" type of message like you were incredulous that anyone could hold a grudge against those MPs.

My point was just to show that BBG was absolutely right in what he was saying. Rather than me saying everyone should be a d*ck, obviously I'd have much preferred that the centrists had gotten behind the party 2015-2019. Who knows what might havve happened as a result?

No, I was incredulous that BBG chose to blame Labour, solely, for what the current tory government have done. No he wasn't right. There was a grain of truth at best. Labour didn't loose all those seats in 2019 due to in-fighting. They lost them because of Corbyn's scattergun approach to policy. It was uncosted, largely and nobody really trusted him with the economy, and probably the countries security. Add to that Brexit and it was a perfect storm He was not going to get elected in 2019, under any circumstances.

Could he have squeaked a coalition in 2017. Maybe, but I have no way of knowing and neither does BBG. Labour needed about 35 additional seats to have any chance. Jesus Labour under Corbyn did not have to agree to the 2019 GE, agreed along with the rest. Corbyn is as much to blame for where we find ourselves today as the electorate. And, I was a fan of his, up to 2019.

Corbyn is not blameless in all of this.

 

[Boroboyyo]

Those questioning the benefit of immigration would do well to verse themselves on the demographic transition model. I'm not saying it provides the answers to the problems but it certainly gives broader context.

It’s not even demographics, it’s more the fact we’re the smallest in terms of land mass compared to Italy , France , Germany

Yet our population is predicted to reach 75 million . That is more mouths to feed, more pollution and more housing needed to build on green land

70% of our country is farmland , 10% urban and the rest Green land . Which one is going to be reduced to cope with the population increase . Not the first two

 

[Laughing]

I agree with this though

But have to say re: the Brian Cox quote, who cares what he thinks? People for some reason get this idea that scientists musings on things other than their field should hold weight. I don't buy it.

I didn't quote him because he is a scientist, I quoted him because I agree with him. They also tend to have a higher IQ than most board members.

 

[SmallTown]

It’s not even demographics, it’s more the fact we’re the smallest in terms of land mass compared to Italy , France , Germany

Yet our population is predicted to reach 75 million . That is more mouths to feed, more pollution and more housing needed to build on green land

70% of our country is farmland , 10% urban and the rest Green land . Which one is going to be reduced to cope with the population increase . Not the first two

You've really fallen for the anti immigration pogrom haven't you? That's the tragic thing here. Starmer has to appeal to the bigots because the message to hate asylum seekers has been so powerful

 

[festa5]

That's the part I can't answer. Honestly to me, as a country we've missed our chances to change course. It doesn't really matter who people vote for now cause we're on a conveyer belt anyway. The country will look broadly the same in 10 years time whether we put the red, blue or yellow team tories in charge.

There was a 24 year gap between Attlee and Foot being Labour leaders. And then a 32 year gap between Foot and Corbyn. So maybe we'll get another chance to vote for a change around 2059?

For me it's a no brainer (clearly given my previous ramblings on the subject!).

More of the Tories will see further erosion of workers rights, more damage to the environment, more voter suppression tactics (making it harder for anyone, never mind labour, to beat them) more erosion of basic freedoms etc etc.

I don't think anyone can seriously argue any of that would be the same under labour? I do genuinely fear that another 4 years of the Tories could be a point of no return.

I also think there's just a genuine principle of if a Government is **** (and surely very few are questioning that now) you need to send a message and kick them out. Regardless of what the alternative is. Because leaving them in just emboldens them to carry on doing the same things. They already act as if they're untouchable and unaccountable.

It needs to be made clear they are actually accountable and there are some things no government should be able to get away with.

So for me that means voting whichever way will remove them from power.

 

[SmallTown]

For me it's a no brainer (clearly given my previous ramblings on the subject!).

More of the Tories will see further erosion of workers rights, more damage to the environment, more voter suppression tactics (making it harder for anyone, never mind labour, to beat them) more erosion of basic freedoms etc etc.

I don't think anyone can seriously argue any of that would be the same under labour? I do genuinely fear that another 4 years of the Tories could be a point of no return.

I also think there's just a genuine principle of if a Government is **** (and surely very few are questioning that now) you need to send a message and kick them out. Regardless of what the alternative is. Because leaving them in just emboldens them to carry on doing the same things. They already act as if they're untouchable and unaccountable.

It needs to be made clear they are actually accountable and there are some things no government should be able to get away with.

So for me that means voting whichever way will remove them from power.

I agree. It's jsut so sad that most peoples votes to rid us of the Tories will now be seen as further validation for the bigoted brexit crowd. At least some of us can vote Lib dem and have best of both

 

[MolteniArcore]

So if Starmer wants to be PM he has to change things or he won’t get a second term and might have to form a coalition because it doesn’t feel like he wants to change much

I couldn't agree more. He has to change things. But for him to do this we have to give him a chance.