One Pfizer vaccination 52% effective after 12 days (according to an article in El País in English from 13 January 2021)

[the_holgate_roof]

After the mess the government has made of the whole thing, my worry is they are now more interested in saying "look how many vaccinations we're doing" .. rather than doing it right ..

Once again, a political rather than a medical decision, trying to in some way get restrictions lifted and the economy flowing, having a lot of people walking around for 3 months only half protected, instead of biting the bullet and getting it done right first time.

 

[MolteniArcore]

Fundamentally this vaccine is only to stop people being hospitalised. The lockdowns have nothing to do with long covid or people having 2 weeks off work, they are to stop the hospitals being overrun. You have 1 dose of the vaccine and then you don't get ill enough to need hospital. It's as simple as that.

If you can give every adult 1 shot of vaccine by the end of September (which is what Raab said we will be doing) that means no more hospitalisations through Covid. How amazing would that be?

I suppose then the problem is if we still catch and transmit it the virus can mutate to get round the vaccine and we are back to square one. But they say these vaccines can be easily modifiable so it looks like Covid is here to stay for the next few years so by that reasoning so will masks and social distancing indoors to a certain extent. Maybe.

 

[Laughing]

Fundamentally this vaccine is only to stop people being hospitalised. The lockdowns have nothing to do with long covid or people having 2 weeks off work, they are to stop the hospitals being overrun. You have 1 dose of the vaccine and then you don't get ill enough to need hospital. It's as simple as that.

If you can give every adult 1 shot of vaccine by the end of September (which is what Raab said we will be doing) that means no more hospitalisations through Covid. How amazing would that be?

I suppose then the problem is if we still catch and transmit it the virus can mutate to get round the vaccine and we are back to square one. But they say these vaccines can be easily modifiable so it looks like Covid is here to stay for the next few years so by that reasoning so will masks and social distancing indoors to a certain extent. Maybe.

I am not sure of the accuracy of the assumption that one shot stops you being hospitalised or dying.

 

[spanishman]

I am not sure of the accuracy of the assumption that one shot stops you being hospitalised or dying.

That is my concern also.

It reduced the risk an amount. However it may not prevent some deaths that would have not occurred if the person had the 2nd dose soon after the first.

On the other hand it may save some lives of people who otherwise would not have got one dose as quickly.

My concern is that this is being done with the Pfizer vaccine without people having a choice. People have been given the first one on the understanding that the second one will be in 3 weeks. They were then told it will be 3 months.

It is why I am pleased that Spain is sticking to the 3 week period between injections for the Pfizer vaccine.

 

[Laughing]

Yes Spanishman, as I said from a personal eprspective I want my family to have the 2 doses in the stated time range, but that is what everyone would say. It worries me that the UK government, on pretty controversial evidence, is doing something different with the Pfizer vaccine than is intended by the manufacturer.

Time will tell, but time may also kill more folks than it has to.

 

[spanishman]

Yes Spanishman, as I said from a personal eprspective I want my family to have the 2 doses in the stated time range, but that is what everyone would say. It worries me that the UK government, on pretty controversial evidence, is doing something different with the Pfizer vaccine than is intended by the manufacturer.

Time will tell, but time may also kill more folks than it has to.

For me it is like when the UK government discharged people from hospital into care homes without having them tested.

It is taking what I feel is the wrong path. When what is at risk is the lives of the most vulnerable group of people.

 

[Corcaigh_the_Cat]

For me it is like when the UK government discharged people from hospital into care homes without having them tested.

It is taking what I feel is the wrong path. When what is at risk is the lives of the most vulnerable group of people.

It's not that simple. More than the most vulnerable people are suffering, some dying and others having long term illness and complications arising from Covid.

Listen to what the Medics saying.

 

[Matt]

It's a tricky one, with the Oxford vaccine they seem to think that the 9-12 week mark is the "sweet spot", and with Pfizer they haven't done those kind of tests as yet.

I don't have the article handy but I did read something about how they implemented this as a 2-shot vaccine because historically an initial dose with a booster has been shown to have the best results, and in a lot of cases (i.e. other vaccines) the booster is best taken several months after the initial dose - however doing the clinical trials along these lines would have considerably lengthened the time it would have taken to complete the trials so they opted for the shorter interval.

Bearing this in mind, there seems to be a strong suspicion that a longer period between the initial dose and the booster is maybe the better approach to do it, however because they didn't do the trials this way then they can't definitively say this (for the Pfizer vaccine, at least). The biggest factor in specifying 3 weeks was that it is the longest amount of time they wanted to wait between doses, not necessarily because they thought it was the most optimum time for a booster (as the Oxford vaccine has supposedly shown)

From my personal point of view, I would rather get more people a single dose initially and deliver the 2nd doses after 10-12 weeks - I think this gives a larger proportion of the more vulnerable some degree of cover, and that will help greatly.

Also, on the subject of the government doing this for political reasons so they can say we have vaccinated more people than other countries... I wouldn't put anything past this government, but in this instance I don't believe that makes a difference as it would be the same number of vaccines in the same time frame, regardless of whether it would be 1st or 2nd doses. I agree they are able to say that more people have had some kind of dosage, but I think it's splitting hairs at that point

 

[spanishman]

It's a tricky one, with the Oxford vaccine they seem to think that the 9-12 week mark is the "sweet spot", and with Pfizer they haven't done those kind of tests as yet.

I don't have the article handy but I did read something about how they implemented this as a 2-shot vaccine because historically an initial dose with a booster has been shown to have the best results, and in a lot of cases (i.e. other vaccines) the booster is best taken several months after the initial dose - however doing the clinical trials along these lines would have considerably lengthened the time it would have taken to complete the trials so they opted for the shorter interval.

Bearing this in mind, there seems to be a strong suspicion that a longer period between the initial dose and the booster is maybe the better approach to do it, however because they didn't do the trials this way then they can't definitively say this (for the Pfizer vaccine, at least). The biggest factor in specifying 3 weeks was that it is the longest amount of time they wanted to wait between doses, not necessarily because they thought it was the most optimum time for a booster (as the Oxford vaccine has supposedly shown)

From my personal point of view, I would rather get more people a single dose initially and deliver the 2nd doses after 10-12 weeks - I think this gives a larger proportion of the more vulnerable some degree of cover, and that will help greatly.

Also, on the subject of the government doing this for political reasons so they can say we have vaccinated more people than other countries... I wouldn't put anything past this government, but in this instance I don't believe that makes a difference as it would be the same number of vaccines in the same time frame, regardless of whether it would be 1st or 2nd doses. I agree they are able to say that more people have had some kind of dosage, but I think it's splitting hairs at that point

I agree it is a difficult call.

I mentioned the fact that others might die because they did not get their first one. I also said that they should perhaps switch to a longer gap later.

What they should not have done is given people one dose promising them a second in 3 weeks. Then change their mind. I feel that is wrong.

On the point of counting this UK government has a very bad past record when it comes to dodgy counting. On coronavirus and many other topics.

 

[Matt]

I thought that everyone who was originally given the first dose expecting to get the 2nd in 3 weeks has still done that - you can see in the data that they are doing 2nd dose vaccines along with the 1st dose (and that number is relatively small compared to the 1st dose numbers, obviously)

 

[spanishman]

It's not that simple. More than the most vulnerable people are suffering, some dying and others having long term illness and complications arising from Covid.

Listen to what the Medics saying.

I agree it is a difficult call. However, they told people they would have a 2nd dose 3 weeks later at the time of their 1st injection. To withdraw this is wrong in my opinion.

 

[spanishman]

I thought that everyone who was originally given the first dose expecting to get the 2nd in 3 weeks has still done that - you can see in the data that they are doing 2nd dose vaccines along with the 1st dose (and that number is relatively small compared to the 1st dose numbers, obviously)

My understanding is that it was not guaranteed. That is what a lot of complaints from doctors were about when this was announced. Maybe it is another U turn?

 

[the_holgate_roof]

I thought that everyone who was originally given the first dose expecting to get the 2nd in 3 weeks has still done that - you can see in the data that they are doing 2nd dose vaccines along with the 1st dose (and that number is relatively small compared to the 1st dose numbers, obviously)

My dad got his first vaccine the week between Xmas and New Year and was told he would get his 2nd in 3 weeks but has now been informed he will have to wait 12 weeks.

 

[spanishman]

My dad got his first vaccine the week between Xmas and New Year and was told he would get his 2nd in 3 weeks but has now been informed he will have to wait 12 weeks.

This really narks me.

In the overall scheme of things giving the 2nd jab 3 weeks later for the relatively small number of people involved was the right thing to do.

It will probably not have a great impact on the overall rate of the process.

However not doing it is bad management of expectations for little real benefit.

 

[Matt]

ah ok, I didn't realise that. It's a bit annoying I imagine for these people. Overall I think it's the right call, both approaches have their merits and it is the governments job to make the tough calls at the end of the day

I imagine if they had decided against it we would have a similar thread on here saying we should have moved to the 12 week approach, with equally valid points

 

[Laughing]

I thought that everyone who was originally given the first dose expecting to get the 2nd in 3 weeks has still done that - you can see in the data that they are doing 2nd dose vaccines along with the 1st dose (and that number is relatively small compared to the 1st dose numbers, obviously)

Both my father in law and my father had been given dates for teh second shot and both had them cancelled, so no people promised their second doses 3 weeks later are not necessarily been given the second dose when they were told.

I think I read the same report as you Matt and from previous vaccines the longer period between doses is pretty normal, pfizer as they have said did not test this and advised against waiting beyond 3-4 weeks for the second dose.

So there is some evidence that waiting will not effect the vaccination, however it is a risky strategy.

 

[spanishman]

ah ok, I didn't realise that. It's a bit annoying I imagine for these people. Overall I think it's the right call, both approaches have their merits and it is the governments job to make the tough calls at the end of the day

I imagine if they had decided against it we would have a similar thread on here saying we should have moved to the 12 week approach, with equally valid points

ah ok, I didn't realise that. It's a bit annoying I imagine for these people. Overall I think it's the right call, both approaches have their merits and it is the governments job to make the tough calls at the end of the day

I imagine if they had decided against it we would have a similar thread on here saying we should have moved to the 12 week approach, with equally valid points

It is yet another court case in waiting. From a person or people whose relatives die in the difference between 3 weeks and 3 months.

 

[Corcaigh_the_Cat]

I agree it is a difficult call. However, they told people they would have a 2nd dose 3 weeks later at the time of their 1st injection. To withdraw this is wrong in my opinion.

That may simply be a failing of the government shooting from the hip, as usual, then changing policy a short while later once those with more of a clue have made their opinions public, a footballer for instance.

For me they've been in such a hurry to save face after their pitiful handling of everything else virus associated that they simply mouthed off without thinking through the options or seeking further advice, as usual.

The handling of the vaccine distribution has gone well, it's been kept away from the Derek Trotters normally popping up when there's a job to do, which they're incapable of performing but get the contract for.

 

[thewanderer]

The 52% figure that keeps getting quotes here is the average efficacy from the the first jab. Including the 12 days where there is almost zero pritection. After about 12-14 days this is well over 80%. Plus let's not forget the vaccines have a near 100% chance of preventing severe covid.

 

[Jedi boro]

I see boris dad didn’t wait 12 weeks