PMQ's - My Personal U-Turn - Starmer Out

[Lefty]

Well there's a rewriting of history!

The election was guaranteed to happen from the moment the SNP and Lib Dems broke ranks with the opposition and said they would support the government's Bill calling a general election. Corbyn was forced into supporting the Bill, unless you think that Labour would have done better looking like they were being dragged kicking and screaming into an election?

It's not a rewriting of history. What you write is correct, the Lib-Dem idiot is even more culpable, but what you need to appreciate is the months of intransigence and failed politics by Corbyn and his inner circle to build an alliance and strategy with the other parties, who he couldn't win without. You completely underestimate the alienation of these and millions of supporters who were with him in 2017.

 

[Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret]

Corbyn was ****ed by brexit. If half your vote are determined to leave and half are determined to stay, there's no squaring that circle.

 

[Lefty]

Corbyn was ****ed by brexit. If half your vote are determined to leave and half are determined to stay, there's no squaring that circle.

But 2/3 wanted to stay and an ever increasing majority in the country did by the time we were two years down the line from the referendum. Circle squared if you entice rather than alienate.

 

[Billy Horner]

It's not a rewriting of history. What you write is correct, the Lib-Dem idiot is even more culpable, but what you need to appreciate is the months of intransigence and failed politics by Corbyn and his inner circle to build an alliance and strategy with the other parties, who he couldn't win without. You completely underestimate the alienation of these and millions of supporters who were with him in 2017.

It's a bit difficult to build an alliance and strategy with a party like the Lib Dems, who say they'll do anything to stop Brexit apart from the one thing that might have actually achieved that aim, which would have been to support an emergency government led by Corbyn. Turns out the only thing the Lib Dems were prepared to do about Brexit was to enable Johnson in delivering the hardest version possible.

Still, you're probably right. All Corbyn's fault.

 

[jam69]

But 2/3 wanted to stay and an ever increasing majority in the country did by the time we were two years down the line from the referendum. Circle squared if you entice rather than alienate.

Problem there lefty was they was lots of remainers that vote tory, and they were never going to switch to voting Labour, whereas many Labour voters were prepared to get into bed with the tories in the name of brexit

 

[r00fie1]

 

[NYboro]

It's not a rewriting of history. What you write is correct, the Lib-Dem idiot is even more culpable, but what you need to appreciate is the months of intransigence and failed politics by Corbyn and his inner circle to build an alliance and strategy with the other parties, who he couldn't win without. You completely underestimate the alienation of these and millions of supporters who were with him in 2017.

The reluctance to build alliances and work with other parties goes back years. It's nothing new.

 

[Billy Horner]

Problem there lefty was they was lots of remainers that vote tory, and they were never going to switch to voting Labour, whereas many Labour voters were prepared to get into bed with the tories in the name of brexit

Plus, unlike a referendum, a first-past-the-post general election is not just a simple numbers game. Even if the numbers had shifted towards remain, if you look at the referendum result on a constituency basis (estimated), 63% of parliamentary constituencies voted leave in 2016 on a 52/48 referendum result.

The numbers would had to have shifted massively to ever stop Brexit through a general election.

 

[BlindBoyGrunt]

This is a well researched account. You need to read it and digest it for a moment.

It is in the European, but it is accurate

I didn't refer to 2019, I said 17. You know that Labour could have won in 17, and you know that Labour MPs, the executive and the General Secretary were plotting against him, diverting funds and allowing anti-Semitism cases to pile up whilst trawling facebook for reasons to expel Corbyn supporters. You know that 63 shadow ministers and PPS's resigned in a choreographed flounce within a year of him becoming leader. If this is an example of the far left (they weren't really far left though) royally screwing us then if and when Starmer loses the next GE it will be the right screwing up, because a few far left cultists don't have that much power. Right?

 

[Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret]

But 2/3 wanted to stay and an ever increasing majority in the country did by the time we were two years down the line from the referendum. Circle squared if you entice rather than alienate.

You've had teesside turn blue and you still don't get it. And that was through being wishy washy. If there are hidden hordes of remainders waiting to sweep a left wing/centrist party into power they're doing a good job of hiding. Not much of a vote winner for the lib Dems or the change party.

There were three choices available.
1. Come out strong remain. Lose the north. Lose the election.
2. Come out strong leave. Lose the liberals and the centrists. Lose the election.
3. Wishy washy. Lose some of the north and some of the liberals. Lose the election.

All of which is moot anyway, as without a huge recession hitting people's living standards or a scandal that people actually care about they're on a loser anyway, as the numbers don't add up till you get rid of the nationalists in Scotland.

 

[Redlips]

For Labour to win a General Election, Labour needs to win loads of seats from the SNP. It is just not going to happen.

 

[Lefty]

Problem there lefty was they was lots of remainers that vote tory, and they were never going to switch to voting Labour, whereas many Labour voters were prepared to get into bed with the tories in the name of brexit

I agree. Corbyn repelled rather than enticed them by the time we got to 2019.

A progressive alliance and Starmer (or someone similar) in charge in 2019 could have won

 

[SuperStu]

You have.

I agree with you that the Right of the Party and most of the PLP thought he would be a terrible leader and tried to undermine him from the outset in 2015 right up until the 2017 campaign. Shame on them.

They were right though. By 2019 he had been trapped into an election he didn't need to have, knowing from his own polling would be disastrous, yet still went ahead and handed Boris an 80 seat majority and a right wing incompetent Brexit govt to handle a pandemic.

My point is two wrongs don't make a right. Your point is 'yeah well, they did it first!' FFS!

The far left had their chance and royally screwed us all, time they acknowledge this and take a step back, not do the t*t for tat stuff out of bitterness, however entitled they might be.

By your logic, the left need to dig in and sabotage as much as they possibly can up to the next election. Try and contribute to Starmer losing the next election and then you'll determine that proves they were right all along.

 

[SuperStu]

A progressive alliance and Starmer (or someone similar) in charge in 2019 could have won

Starmers not even allied with his own party members and clps. Sheer fantasy to think he'd have done any better at the last election.

 

[coluka]

Which polices of David do you think would have been a vote winner ?

He never got the chance to formulate specific party policies mores the pity. He was very strong on social justice from what I recall he was the right candidate at the right time, he would have out manoeuvred Cameron on his ‘big society’ mantra, but the unions undermined David. For example, Unite and GMB included promotional material for Ed with their ballot papers in 2010 contest, this was disgraceful imho, a clear attempt to unfairly scupper his chances because their leadership wanted to move the party away from the centre left. This imho was the biggest mistake from Labour, its affilated voting supporters in particular and created the opportunity for Cameron to sweep up the centre ground that Blair had won back from the barren years in the wilderness.

I know many will throw pelters and shout expletives, but we are where we are, (imho) having had 11 years of tory rule and arguably another good few to come because of the union leadership and the way the affiliated voting was handled in 2010. The more left of centre you move, the more you help the tories remain in power. As I have said time and again, philosophy and ideologies are pointless if you do not have the power to implement them. The left need to understand this but are to obdurate, dogmatic and restricted in their vision to deliver. Charisma, trust, vision, self awareness, integrity and a desire to be respected by the majority of the electorate should be essential qualities for any leader. In 2019 neither PM candidates had this in sufficient quantities, so the public do what they always do in such circumstances and stick with the devil you know. I appreciate it was a brexit election and Labours dithering was a massive factor too in that one.

 

[SuperStu]

Insane that people are still talking about David Miliband in 2021. And they still haven't bothered to look up any policies he might have had.



He's the Kieron Dyer of politics. The longest he's not involved the grander the claims around him become.

The more left of centre you move, the more you help the tories remain in power.

Labour have lost seats in every election for the last 24 years except for one. 2017. The one when they moved left of centre for the first time in that period.

The left need to understand this but are to obdurate, dogmatic and restricted in their vision to deliver.

Projection. Everything you're saying applies so much more to the "centrists" than the left Col. Even now you'll confidently proclaim the centre as having some magic key to power despite election after election showing it just doesn't work.

 

[Lefty]

By your logic, the left need to dig in and sabotage as much as they possibly can up to the next election. Try and contribute to Starmer losing the next election and then you'll determine that proves they were right all along.

No. Most of those who were undermining Corbyn from 2015-17 were chastened by the 2017 result and thought 'perhaps we were wrong, perhaps he can get us elected' and halted the campaign, to concentrate on May and Johnson and Brexit.

Corbyn was given his rope and after two more years of seeing his lack of leadership and confusing messages, the country decided to hang him with it.

What the far left need to understand is the country isn't hard left so they shouldn't try to impose or sneak their brand of Labour on it. Not only is that undemocratic, it doesn't work.

What the far left need to understand is a Labour government is far better than a Conservative one.

What the far left need to understand is when the country rejects them that is what we get.

Labour never wins when it is divided. Look at the history.

Ramsey MacDonald managed to get elected PM, but then the left decided he wasn't left enough and couldn't countenance working with other parties in a National Government during the Great Depression. Labour went from 288 seats (to the Tories 260) minority government (with the support of Lloyd Georges liberals) to MacDonald winning the largest ever mandate from a British PM with 554 seats. Unfortunately 473 of those were Conservatives, 68 Liberals and just 13 National Labour. The Labour Party under Arthur Henderson won just 52 seats.

Then we had the post Atlee period when Labour were riven between the Gaitskillites and the Bevanites and were out of power from 1951 until Wilson brought everyone together again with a more centrist compromise. Wilson was elected PM twice.

Then, when Labour went down the Michael Foot route on the left, the country rejected them. In fact Kinnock had to spend years fighting to oust militant to get the party electable again. He narrowly failed in 1992, largely because of Major's personal centrist appeal to the nation.

Step in Blair. Three times centrist Blair was elected and he did a hell of a lot more for workers, the NHS and Education than Thatcher or Cameron, May and Johnson since.

So the message to the far left is you can't win, but you can certainly do a job for the Tories you supposedly despise. Can't you just be smart?

 

[JackG]

This is a well researched account. You need to read it and digest it for a moment.

It is in the European, but it is accurate

It appears to show how Starmer and his anti-democratic ilk have consistently undermined the Labour party from within, lost 2 elections and are on track to lose a third.

 

[JackG]

He never got the chance to formulate specific party policies mores the pity. He was very strong on social justice from what I recall he was the right candidate at the right time, he would have out manoeuvred Cameron on his ‘big society’ mantra, but the unions undermined David. For example, Unite and GMB included promotional material for Ed with their ballot papers in 2010 contest, this was disgraceful imho, a clear attempt to unfairly scupper his chances because their leadership wanted to move the party away from the centre left. This imho was the biggest mistake from Labour, its affilated voting supporters in particular and created the opportunity for Cameron to sweep up the centre ground that Blair had won back from the barren years in the wilderness.

I know many will throw pelters and shout expletives, but we are where we are, (imho) having had 11 years of tory rule and arguably another good few to come because of the union leadership and the way the affiliated voting was handled in 2010. The more left of centre you move, the more you help the tories remain in power. As I have said time and again, philosophy and ideologies are pointless if you do not have the power to implement them. The left need to understand this but are to obdurate, dogmatic and restricted in their vision to deliver. Charisma, trust, vision, self awareness, integrity and a desire to be respected by the majority of the electorate should be essential qualities for any leader. In 2019 neither PM candidates had this in sufficient quantities, so the public do what they always do in such circumstances and stick with the devil you know. I appreciate it was a brexit election and Labours dithering was a massive factor too in that one.

Ask the Chagos Islanders and victims of extraordinary rendition what they think of David Miliband. He's a US lickspittle, enjoying the lavish rewards of his perfidy.

 

[coluka]

Projection. Everything you're saying applies so much more to the "centrists" than the left Col. Even now you'll confidently proclaim the centre as having some magic key to power despite election after election showing it just doesn't work.

The thing is there are far more people sat in or around the centre ground than there ever are in the hard left or right of British politics. The further away from the centre ground you go, the more stubborn and dogmatic people are, it is never their fault, it is those damned foolish centrists that are blinkered, well, I can assure you recent history tells a different story to the narrative you believe imho. We’ve done this topic it to death though