PMQ's - My Personal U-Turn - Starmer Out

JackG said:
Ask the Chagos Islanders and victims of extraordinary rendition what they think of David Miliband. He's a US lickspittle, enjoying the lavish rewards of his perfidy.
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He wasn’t in 2010 which is what I was talking about, oh, and I could easily make a similar accusation about Corbyn and a certain part of the world near Israel. Labours direction since 2010 has been frankly wanting, much to my dismay.
 
Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret said:
I don't think pmqs matter in the slightest. Who watches them?
Whether he has a nice haircut is of far more relevance with the voting public than a person's performance in parliament.
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Lets take that one step further. Anything Johnson says inside or outside Parliament doesn't matter to great swathes of Northern wall voters anymore. I mean really he could shag your wife or kill your elderly aunt (and he has helped to kill many by the way) and he would still raise “ah well its Boris”

Christ we have had a day where the Prime Ministers most trusted personal adviser basically admit the PM is a tinpot politician who has created a health catastrophe with his bungling and we are still banging on about the Labour opposition.

I really do believe that these are a dark dark time for the UK.
 
JackG said:
It appears to show how Starmer and his anti-democratic ilk have consistently undermined the Labour party from within, lost 2 elections and are on track to lose a third.
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Then you aren't reading it properly.

Milne & co. ignored the policy set at the conference and also what was agreed at cabinet meetings. They did their own thing, without any mandate but assumed an authority they didn't have and were able to do so because Corbyn wasn't man enough or leader enough to stop them.

Some might think this is the same as what members of the PLP did to Corbyn between 2015-17, but there are two differences. Those MP's were elected and that gives them some legitimacy to exercise their judgement. The second difference is that the MP's judged Corbyn, having known him for years, was not leadership material. Which they were proved right about.

Milne and co were going against policy which is an agreed position representing the wishes of not just the leadership but the constituencies and members of the party. Outrageous. Stop defending them because you had misplaced high hopes. All the things you wanted to believe of Corbyn, that you invested in him, just weren't based on the reality of the guy. The PLP judged him right, but acted wrong. The left judged him wrong and are acting wrong.

And I was just as guilty of the misplaced high hopes and I still like the bloke as an MP.
 
Lefty said:
Then you aren't reading it properly.

Milne & co. ignored the policy set at the conference and also what was agreed at cabinet meetings. They did their own thing, without any mandate but assumed an authority they didn't have and were able to do so because Corbyn wasn't man enough or leader enough to stop them.

Some might think this is the same as what members of the PLP did to Corbyn between 2015-17, but there are two differences. Those MP's were elected and that gives them some legitimacy to exercise their judgement. The second difference is that the MP's judged Corbyn, having known him for years, was not leadership material. Which they were proved right about.

Milne and co were going against policy which is an agreed position representing the wishes of not just the leadership but the constituencies and members of the party. Outrageous. Stop defending them because you had misplaced high hopes. All the things you wanted to believe of Corbyn, that you invested in him, just weren't based on the reality of the guy. The PLP judged him right, but acted wrong. The left judged him wrong and are acting wrong.

And I was just as guilty of the misplaced high hopes and I still like the bloke as an MP.
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They had a mandate. It came from the referendum, in which I voted remain. I had no high hopes of Corbyn - I think he meant well but he'd been useless all his career. I despise Milne but share the view that the referendum result should have been respected. Labour promised to honour the result but went back on their word. I fear it could be a generation before they're trusted again. Have a look at The Failure of the Left to Grasp Brexit
 
JackG said:
They had a mandate. It came from the referendum, in which I voted remain. I had no high hopes of Corbyn - I think he meant well but he'd been useless all his career. I despise Milne but share the view that the referendum result should have been respected. Labour promised to honour the result but went back on their word. I fear it could be a generation before they're trusted again. Have a look at The Failure of the Left to Grasp Brexit
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The one thing the EU isn't is neoliberal! It couldn't be further from free market zero regulation.
 
JackG said:
They had a mandate. It came from the referendum, in which I voted remain. I had no high hopes of Corbyn - I think he meant well but he'd been useless all his career. I despise Milne but share the view that the referendum result should have been respected. Labour promised to honour the result but went back on their word. I fear it could be a generation before they're trusted again. Have a look at The Failure of the Left to Grasp Brexit
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The referendum gave no mandate. Brexit wasn’t defined and what has been delivered is nothing like what was promised, which was the basis of people’s vote.

The ONLY proper, sensible, reasonable and logical answer was to put it back to the people to make damn sure, on an issue as important as this.
 
Lefty said:
No. Most of those who were undermining Corbyn from 2015-17 were chastened by the 2017 result and thought 'perhaps we were wrong, perhaps he can get us elected' and halted the campaign, to concentrate on May and Johnson and Brexit.
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If you believe that you'll believe anything. The sabotage increased after 2017. That's clear to see. I don't know why you bother peddling these blatant falsehoods Lefty. You've already been pulled up in this thread for rewriting history.
 
coluka said:
The thing is there are far more people sat in or around the centre ground than there ever are in the hard left or right of British politics.
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Col, look at the evidence in front of you. This may have been true once but it's not now.

As Labour went further left their vote increased by the biggest swing since 1945.

As the tories have gone further right and committed themselves to massive constitutional change they've got an 80 seat majority.

The party that are looking to break Scotland away from the UK win virtually every seat up there these days.

The centrist parties like the Lib Dems and Change UK get next to nothing. Repeatedly. Lib Dem leaders don't even hold on to their seats most of the time now.
 
SuperStu said:
The centrist parties like the Lib Dems and Change UK get next to nothing. Repeatedly. Lib Dem leaders don't even hold on to their seats most of the time now.
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The reason they do not get votes and traction is because they are not seen as governable, they are seen as a wasted vote in most areas and have no chance of ever being near power. Party politics in the UK is broken. It is a two horse race in England and a one horse race in Scotland. I understand why Scotland wants to break away the union has been badly let down by Labour and Conservatives over the years as Westminster and the South East has failed to invest in all corners of the UK.

We desperately need proportional representation in this country so that every vote matters. Johnsons talk of levelling up has gained traction in red wall areas through Brexit and if investment is made as promised and people see real investment, jobs created and change being delivered, I can see England being a one party dominated state too sadly. Most people care about themselves and their families lives and if things are ok for them they will keep the status quo. Labour need to start to understand why they keep losing and to understand what would make people vote for them. Higher taxes and a social conscience does not work for most people it seems unfortunately.
 
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