Not up to both fighters. Its all furys side. Bricktop says they are negotiation a fee and Bob says they are fighting in Vegas ?
So Fury/Joshua 14th August confirmed
- Thread starter John67
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Andy_W
Well-known member
The only way Wilder wins is by getting the money and retiring. As the other options are he takes the bribe and get's called a coward, whilst the world gets what the world wants and forgets him or he pushes for the fight and takes another beating. The latter way also has the issue of everyone being against him/ that for making everyone wait for Fury and AJ. It would kill what credibility he has.
He should have took a minor payday to step aside, early doors and not kicked up a fuss. He could have ensured it was not common knowledge or had an NDA, and maybe had an option to fight the winner after the AJ Fury rematch or trilogy, if he was up for it.
But he's just been a greedy fool and it's going to kill his legacy (limited though it was).
I'm starting to now think Fury should just call him on it, but fight for no money or insist on no PPV or fighting at Wembley (which Wilder won't do), and just beat him again, so he gets less cash and has no comeback. Wilder certainly won't want a hiding at Wembley, that's for sure, and has no grounds for a USA fight surely?
He should have took a minor payday to step aside, early doors and not kicked up a fuss. He could have ensured it was not common knowledge or had an NDA, and maybe had an option to fight the winner after the AJ Fury rematch or trilogy, if he was up for it.
But he's just been a greedy fool and it's going to kill his legacy (limited though it was).
I'm starting to now think Fury should just call him on it, but fight for no money or insist on no PPV or fighting at Wembley (which Wilder won't do), and just beat him again, so he gets less cash and has no comeback. Wilder certainly won't want a hiding at Wembley, that's for sure, and has no grounds for a USA fight surely?
Or Fury should have fought him like Joshua did during COVID with no crowd. The fight would have been done and dusted by now.
Andy_W
Well-known member
There's only so many times a man can be beaten.
Surely Wlider knows he lost twice, the rest of the world does? Even if he won the third, nobody would care, it's old news, it's done.
You would hope so mate but this is the problem when you sign multi fight contracts.
Andy_W
Well-known member
I can't imagine there was a three-fight contract, it must have been "re-match" after a win. The first being a draw rolled over, so the second was "the result" and the third being the re-match.
In reality, everyone knows the first was a Fury win, even the USA lot were saying it was, so the second was basically the rematch, which Wilder definitely lost.
Fury could argue the contract is void as the first "result" was spurious, had no basis on logic, and then there may be some covid get-outs etc.
If i recall when the 2nd fight was signed it was part of 2 fight deal. I agree with you he won both fights but that's the issue with signing these contracts. Wilder and Fury's sides was too greedy and wouldn't fight without a crowd. Didn't Fury agree a fight in London in November against an Albanian window cleaner but then scrapped that because there wasn't enough money for him in it ?
Andy_W
Well-known member
To be fair if he signed a two-fight deal after that first fight, then he's dumber than I'm giving him credit for, unless he knew he could milk it and still get some AJ fights in.
Uwefuchs
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BoroMart
Well-known member
Depends on the time frame, you are looking at but AJ is clearly a more complete fighter than 3 years ago.
The fact he boxed Ruiz, showed discipline and stamina showed he has more strings to his bow. It showed he learned patience, the only reason he lost the first Ruiz fight is because he went steaming in when he knocked Ruiz down, he got over confident and didn't read the situation. He showed against Ruiz second time that he can outbox someone for 12 rounds.
Against Pulev he proved that he learned from Ruiz 1 to time his attack properly. He floored Pulev in the third, tried to finish, but Pulev is granite and wouldn't fold, AJ recognised this, he learned. So Joshua held back, regrouped, started to soften the body and recognised that it had sapped Pulev of his power, then he stepped on the gas and broke a previously unbreakable boxer.
If fixing things that went wrong in earlier fights isn't improving I'm not sure what is.
BoroMart
Well-known member
I don't think he does, the mans deluded.
BoroMart
Well-known member
If Fury had beaten Takam he'd be the third best boxer on his CV, that's a fact.
Andy_W
Well-known member
Right, so you cherry-pick the lowest name I mentioned (who Joshua also beat a good year before Chisora did), and before then he had only been beaten by Parker or Povetkin (both who Joshua has since beaten, and neither which Fury or Wilder have beaten, or fought)? He wasn't one of the top 10 names I mentioned either.
You can't win a cherry-picking fight, as Wilder is the king cherry picker of heavyweight history, and pretty much the most overrated boxer of all time, which is some doing considering 99% of his raters are USA based. It's mad how someone can be overrated as a whole, even when the rest of the world doesn't rate him. The only reason he's a name at all is because he's got a belt, but he only got that by beating Stiverne, who himself got the belt as it was vacated by Vitali, and he "fought" Arreoloa for it (nobody who Ruiz also beat). He's only held the belt so long as he's not fought anyone of note, but time breeds hype to some people.
To have an argument against my post, you need to offer something to disprove the main arguments, and disprove the key facts of it (rather than trying to disprove the supporting arguments). So, other than windmill, who has Fury has fought other than Klitschko (but he was old, and Joshua already beat him)? Why hasn't he been fighting top 10 fighters?
Why didn't you mention the 4 top 10 ranked fighters I picked? Whyte, Ruiz, Povetkin, Parker etc? I know they're not all great but they are all top 8 (and 4 out of 5 of the fighters on the top 8 list, if you take out Fury, AJ and Wilder). You can only beat who is there to fight, but neither Wilder or Fury have fought anyone in the top 10? At least those 4 that AJ also beat were not all old punchbags etc.
Just compare Joshua's last 10 fights/ fighters with Wilder and Fury, can you honestly say Wilder or Fury's list is anywhere near that of AJ's?
Fury's last 10 includes such big names as: Wallin, Schwartz, Pianeta, Seferi, Hammer, Chisora, Abell, Cunningham - they're all ****
Wilder's last 10 highlights include a load of old blokes, who often get beat, and who themselves are bum hunters also.
The thing that annoys me the most about Wilder is that some people in the USA hold him in the same regard as other USA fighters who were actually decent, and who didn't dodge tough fights, but I'll give his management credit, they've really milked that right hand for $$, and strung it out as long as possible.
Again, I think Fury is better than the people he's faced, but it's so hard to tell how good he is compared to the division as the list he's faced is not great and it's completely unproven. I can't see how he can get credit ahead of AJ. The only way he could get credit, is by giving major credit to Wilder (but everyone realises that's misplaced).
Alzi
Well-known member
I’m just not quite sure what your point is? Fury is crap ? He’s clearly not.
Padded record or not Wilder is still a dangerous fight for anyone, Joshua included.
How do you predict Joshua Fury going?
Alzi
Well-known member
It’s not a fact though is it. Off the top of my head Klitschko, Wilder, Chisora. Which one is Takam better than?
if I’m honest there’s a lot of average fighters about with padded records. Povetkin and Whyte are decent fighters but not elite. Parker /Ruiz? Bang average, you’d be quite misguided to think they’d trouble Fury much. Even Hughie took Parker the distance.
Andy_W
Well-known member
Really, you don't get it after all that? Jesus.
Right, I'll make it simple. Who is the best fighter that Fury has beat? There are only two choices here, seeing as the rest are not rated by anyone, so you've got:
Wilder - most overrated boxer of the last 30 years
Klitchko - old and past it (AJ also beat him too)
And no, I've not said Fury is crap, anywhere, never would as he's in the top 2.
But, like my last paragraph mentions, Fury is better than the people he's faced (largely as he's beat them), but the people he's faced are not the best in the top 10, and none of them are near AJ. So currently he's unproven against people at AJ's level (as AJ has beat more top 10's than anyone, and come through largely unscathed other than a mistake/ back head punch from Ruiz).
So my point is Fury should not be a favourite, or if he is it is not based on statistics, records and record v opposition, especially considering when he's not in as good a shape as his opposition and hasn't really been tested by anyone good or at their best? He'll be a favourite based largely on sentiment.
Fury and AJ are 1 & 2 or 2 & 1, not really doubting that, but there's zero way to say which is better than the other. Record wise there's more of an argument to say AJ should win, if Fury doesn't get in his head (but he might, it's a key factor). Equally AJ might just land a combination harder than fury has ever faced, and it could all be over.
Personally, I think it's about dead even, so if Fury does start as favourite, then the value is in backing AJ.
Wilder is dangerous, of course, he is, but he's a lot less dangerous to good fighters, who will batter him first. Then when he gets battered he gets more and more desperate, as Fury shown. Wilder hasn't fought anyone good (other than Fury, and he only took that fight as he thought Fury had lost it), he's a bum hunter. His windmills are luck, he's wild, imagine him fighting a decent version of Klitschko, Lewis or Holyfield, someone like that, he wouldn't land a punch, the same way AJ would pick him off (albeit AJ isn't as good as those at their peak). Wilder is a joke of the system though, and Fury shown him up to be that (good on Fury).
Joshua probably hits with the same force as Wilder, and would likely hit even harder if he started throwing crazy windmills, but he doesn't do it, as that's not how to fight at that level. Joshua will land a lot more on Fury, than Wilder did, and 100 punches at 80% are going to be better than Wilder landing 10 at 100%. Wilder might have a bit faster hands than Joshua but he's not got that much mass in his arms to power them, and each windmill takes about all he has, then he's vulnerable.
Alzi
Well-known member
You seem to be arguing with yourself. I'm not really pro Joshua or Fury, They're both good fighters with different styles.
I'll agree Joshua has probably fought more "top 10" fighters but that doesn't mean a lot as I think most are still pretty average. Was Pulvel "top 10"? He is poor. Look at how easily Joshua outboxed Ruiz (2nd time when he was focused) and Parker, they wouldn't get Fury in reality. Povetkin and Whyte are dangerous but that's about it.
It is a bit disingenuous to say the late 30's version of Klitschko who fought Fury was "past it". He was even older and in his 40's when he fought Joshua and very nearly beat him.
BoroMart
Well-known member
To be a proper respected champ you need to not just beat the champ, but you need wins against people with World title defences on their CV. Someone who has proven that not only can they get to the top, they can stay at the top. Wilder has beaten one champion Stiverne, as you mentioned, Stiverne won the belt (without beating a champ) then lost it straight away. He was nothing but a transition champion. A champion in name only. Wilder hasn't beaten a single champ.
Now for Fury, he beat Klitschko, bamboozled him, and that win should and cannot every be underestimated in how he made a great champ look stupid, but he never really rocked Klitschko, never took it to him. Fan boys are very quick to claim AJ was on his bike vs the heavy handed Ruiz, but that is exactly how Fury fought against Klitschko, jab and move. OK Klitschko is classier than Ruiz but a heavy right of him or Ruiz will pretty much feel the same. He also beat Wilder, but as above he was a champ in name only, never a proven champ because he had never beaten a proper champ himself. Other than that there isn't anyone on Fury's record of note, and of course he hasn't ever defended his own belt despite being a two time champ. He has in fact spent 769 days as a reigning champ without every setting foot in the ring to defend his belt, that must be some kind of record.
AJ, of course beat Klitschko as well, it was 17 months after Fury but no one can deny he had got himself in great shape for that fight but yes he was 40. But where he was better than the Fury fight was mentally attuned, Klitschko was hungrier and not messed up with mind games, it was a better mentally prepared Wlad against AJ. AJ took it to him, out slugged Klitschko, something Fury wasn't able to do against a 39 year old Wlad.
AJ beat Charles Martin who wasn't a real champ same as Stiverne won it via a vacant fight. He beat Parker with 2 defences and an unbeaten and undropped record. Then Povetkin with 4 defences. Then Ruiz who he didn't allow to have any defences.
All in all AJ cv > Fury > Wilder
BoroMart
Well-known member
I'd forgotten chisora, it's a fact that Fury has only fought 3 better boxers than Takam, and Takam is probably AJs 8th or 9th best win