And the irony ... as a direct result of the war, what do we have ... more NATO expansion. From countries previously not particularly interested in joining have seen complete turnarounds ... Its a but of a self-fulfilling prophecy isn't it.
The end?
- Thread starter borolad259
- Start date
And the irony ... as a direct result of the war, what do we have ... more NATO expansion. From countries previously not particularly interested in joining have seen complete turnarounds ... Its a but of a self-fulfilling prophecy isn't it.
How would it be if the shoe was on the other foot?
What if Canada or Mexico decided to ally with Russia and introduce weaponary from Russa, directly threatening the US? What would the reaction be? Don't forget that US troops entering Mexico is always bandied around as a means of fighting the cartels. What if a puppet president was 'elected' thanks to cartels and decided to start allying with Russia to protect Mexico from the US?
Everybody knows that the closest we came to a full World War 3 was the Cuban missile crisis. How many times have the US invaded or abetted coups in South America to overthrow governments who are seen as unfriendly? How much bloodshed in Chile when the US put in a dictator in place of Allende?
It is too complex a global situation to have a straight forward right & wrong. Putin is a maniac. Trump is a maniac.
The amount of nukes Russia has it shouldn't be upset at anyone putting weapons into its neighbours. Nobody is going to cross its borders unless (like Ukraine) its in retaliation. It should focus on not being eliminated from World trading relationships and routes as thats the only thing that can effect it. World economies seeking independence form oil & gas is a threat to all countries whose economies depend on those commodities.
Putin talking about Nazis on his doorstep is a poor excuse for a land grab. Like in 1939, the West will largely ignore it until it looks like threatening one of the clique.
Putin talking about Nazis on his doorstep is a poor excuse for a land grab. Like in 1939, the West will largely ignore it until it looks like threatening one of the clique.
changingman
Well-known member
Agree with your final sentence re: complexity. As ever, it's neither black nor white, despite each "side" presenting their view as definitive.
The fall of the Iron Curtain is obviously felt heavily in some quarters and a desire to reverse those losses would appear to have factored into Putin's thinking re: the invasion. That said, presumably the expansion of NATO is the very reason he didn't include other ex-Soviet (now NATO) states in his special military operation.
The timing of the SMO is something which has always struck me, without really having a view as to any pertinence. Presumably, he could have done this at any point? Why Feb 2022 for instance?
The fall of the Iron Curtain is obviously felt heavily in some quarters and a desire to reverse those losses would appear to have factored into Putin's thinking re: the invasion. That said, presumably the expansion of NATO is the very reason he didn't include other ex-Soviet (now NATO) states in his special military operation.
The timing of the SMO is something which has always struck me, without really having a view as to any pertinence. Presumably, he could have done this at any point? Why Feb 2022 for instance?
Muttley
Well-known member
Had we not admitted the Baltic states into NATO it is almost certain that they would have been first to be "re-absorbed" into the Russian Empire. NATO is not an Empire it is a club, you can join if you are the right "sort" and membership is voluntary. Ireland, Switzerland and Austria for example are not members, France left and came back. There is the world of difference between an excuse and a provocation.
See, this what I dont agree on. Why is it assumed that Russia is going to invade these ex-soviet countries? Or at least they would without NATO protection?
All of these arguments work another another assumption that the US/NATO is just purely an international force for good. 'We' look at other countries and threaten that you are either with us or against us.
From my point of view, NATO expansion is to generate vast sums of money for the US. They demand that a certain percentage of GDP is allocated to 'defence'. Trump made such a big song and dance about it - making sure NATO pays its way. We have been lapdogs to the US since the end of the second world war. NATO is military and money - the huge military industrial complex that we were warned about.
For me, the EU is a better means of co-operation and peace. Business partners tend not to declare war on one another. That was the whole reason the EU exists - peace through partnership not mutual military deterrence.
Borotommo
Well-known member
Probably because he’s been doing just that in Ukraine for 10+ years? His wet dream is the reformation of the Soviet Union
Muttley
Well-known member
Previous actions (Georgia and Crimea among others) and stated intentions (he has compared himself to Peter The Great and talked about the restoration of the 1917 borders). Google and read. It is also enlightening to read some Russian history it may explain why Britain is seen as a traditional and nefarious enemy out of all proportion to our current global status and why a large %age of the population is so easily led.
The West made a deep promise to Gorbachev when the Berlin Wall came down, that NATO would not move an inch further east...with new memberships of former Eastern bloc states, NATO moved much very further East.
And that is very very justified with a lunatic like Putin creating wars.
Circumstances change.
If a moderate like Gorbachov had been in charge there would be no need for NATO expansion.
Not according to Gorbachev...
Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says "No" | Brookings
Russian President Vladimir Putin has made it well known his antipathy towards NATO, claiming the Alliance took advantage of Russian weakness after the collapse of the Soviet Union in violation of promises allegedly made to Moscow by Western leaders. Steven Pifer argues that no such promises were...
www.brookings.edu
Well for one thing, because he's started talking about them using rhetoric similar to that which he used about Ukraine before invading.
The article below is from Business Insider, published just last month.
Putin is starting to talk tough about the Baltics, laying the groundwork for 'future escalations'
Gorbachev was contradictory on this topic - sometimes saying it was promised... sometimes saying it wasn't.Not according to Gorbachev...
Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says "No" | Brookings
Russian President Vladimir Putin has made it well known his antipathy towards NATO, claiming the Alliance took advantage of Russian weakness after the collapse of the Soviet Union in violation of promises allegedly made to Moscow by Western leaders. Steven Pifer argues that no such promises were...
Decent_Left
Well-known member
Sorry but I laughed out loud when I put these 3 posts together
Morrissey: The West made a deep promise to Gorbachev when the Berlin Wall came down, that NATO
Vzzzbx said:
Not according to Gorbachev...
Morrissey: The West made a deep promise to Gorbachev when the Berlin Wall came down, that NATO
Vzzzbx said:
Not according to Gorbachev...
Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says "No" | Brookings
Russian President Vladimir Putin has made it well known his antipathy towards NATO, claiming the Alliance took advantage of Russian weakness after the collapse of the Soviet Union in violation of promises allegedly made to Moscow by Western leaders. Steven Pifer argues that no such promises wereand declassified documents from the US State dept show that James Baker did, on at least 3 occasions, make the promise of no further expansion...go figure.Sorry but I laughed out loud when I put these 3 posts together
Morrissey: The West made a deep promise to Gorbachev when the Berlin Wall came down, that NATO
Vzzzbx said:
Not according to Gorbachev...
Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says "No" | Brookings
Russian President Vladimir Putin has made it well known his antipathy towards NATO, claiming the Alliance took advantage of Russian weakness after the collapse of the Soviet Union in violation of promises allegedly made to Moscow by Western leaders. Steven Pifer argues that no such promises were
Muttley
Well-known member
I believe it was discussed/offered but was never part of any formal agreement or "promise".
Whatever. There is now the most intense and bloody battle of the entire conflict raging in Avdivka.
Thoughts with Tank Girl and her army. They are in the thick of it and much blood will be spilled unfortunately.
Can't add much more for obvious reasons.
Thoughts with Tank Girl and her army. They are in the thick of it and much blood will be spilled unfortunately.
Can't add much more for obvious reasons.