The Highest Excess Mortality Rate in Europe

[Muttley]

If you don't think this is political just wait until we get Johnson back (ie. probably when he can announce some good news) and the blue media rise as one to greet his triumphal return as "Boris leads us into the sunlit uplands", "he wrestled COVID to the ground like a mugger", et bleedin' cetera.

I know its coming, they're lining up the ducks.

Then it will really be political. Then with any blame successfully diverted towards the WHO and the Chinese Government, he will get down to making sure his rich chums are OK like he was always going to.

 

[Erimus74]

On the one hand, it is entirely natural that we, as individuals, seek to understand the world around us and, at this moment, it is dominated by this disease and the rather confusing responses to it. It's also quite natural, in the face of a media (old and new) saturated with coverage to want an escape from it. To be honest, that is easily done .... get out and walk somewhere, do jobs etc Even just ignore threads (you don't need an ignore button to do that). People will usually try to frame events according to their own world view. So those on the left of centre will blame the state of the NHS on the Tory neglect of the health service, Brexit and the fact that they ignored their own advisors when it came to preparing for this epidemic. Those on the right, who probably voted Tory, will scream that this is not a time to be politicising the crisis. One thing I can say from my point of view, it has been good to see the Tory government implementing socialist policy as a result of the pandemic ... though I suspect I'll be less keen if they try to claw furlough/business interuption payments back via aurterity rather than tax rises. Can't win em all. Seriously though, tough times and it's good to have this place for stuff like the music threads and more general discussion. And I think, by and large, debate has been civil.

Good post borolad, I won't use the ignore facility, there are posters on here who may post something I dont agree with & I will voice my opinion but will still want to engage with them on other 'friendlier' topics, always will do
This board has been a breath of fresh air to me personally, I go out on my regualr walk, in the garden & as today, out on my bike, but then I enjoy this forum for the friendly banter, the nostalgia, music, although certain posters dont like mine a varity of topics, it really does help me out at times when I feel low

 

[Erimus74]

If you don't think this is political just wait until we get Johnson back (ie. probably when he can announce some good news) and the blue media rise as one to greet his triumphal return as "Boris leads us into the sunlit uplands", "he wrestled COVID to the ground like a mugger", et bleedin' cetera.

I know its coming, they're lining up the ducks.

Then it will really be political. Then with any blame successfully diverted towards the WHO and the Chinese Government, he will get down to making sure his rich chums are OK like he was always going to.

Muttley, that is a very good point & something I will look forward regarding the good news & yes people will rightly voice their fors & against, thats a fact of life & we have to accept it
My concern is regarding posting about the number of deaths on a message board, continours posts about PPE etc, we know the governments failings on this, someone posted about the number of deaths expected & removed it, why was the need to post that, maybe i'm to soft

 

[1finny]

I find what is going on really interesting and enjoying trying to understand the nuances. I know its not for everyone. I don’t watch the briefings or the news because everyone has an agenda and, frankly, I’ve no idea who to trust or not.
There is tons of stuff out there and trying to pick the wheat from the chaff is really tricky. The whole panorama thing was a great example of that.
Documentary asking loads of questions.
Since then - ‘all these interviewed were labour actvists’ and ‘My nephew’’s friend works in one of those hospitals and has rung me to say there are no problems’ - that was an actual tweet by the way.

That’s why I like data and graphs - as long as the data is accurate it begs a question.

 

[Erimus74]

I find what is going on really interesting and enjoying trying to understand the nuances. I know its not for everyone. I don’t watch the briefings or the news because everyone has an agenda and, frankly, I’ve no idea who to trust or not.
There is tons of stuff out there and trying to pick the wheat from the chaff is really tricky. The whole panorama thing was a great example of that.
Documentary asking loads of questions.
Since then - ‘all these interviewed were labour actvists’ and ‘My nephew’’s friend works in one of those hospitals and has rung me to say there are no problems’ - that was an actual tweet by the way.

That’s why I like data and graphs - as long as the data is accurate it begs a question.

I started watching wall to wall news hoping for a glimmer of light until my wife & son told me off

Going out on my bike soon finny, not at your level, hardly been out on it this yerar so going for a couple of miles as a warm up, hope youre still doing likewise

 

[American_Mary]

The sad reality is at the moment Covid is pretty much at the forefront of everyone’s minds and therefore it’s the subject matter of a large amount of threads. That will remain the case until things start changing.

I understand that people don’t want to hear bad news but again, unfortunately, it’s what people focus on, if there was a Tsunami or famine the focus wouldn’t be on the majority who survived but those that died, survivors don’t quantify the seriousness of a situation.

As for blaming the government or individuals if they have made mistakes then it’s totally fair to warrant criticism, the idea that we shouldn’t comment is pretty silly, I’m very interested in what the recommendations of the Cygnus Trial Pandemic were in 2016 and what was and wasn’t followed, but I can’t see it so I have to be critical of the Government for not releasing it, when we are promised a daily figure of tests of 250k, which is then reduced to 100k a day and we are not going to meet even the reduced figure I want to know why ? Especially as testing high numbers appears to be the keystone of Germany’s successful response to the pandemic, if people are gathering in a park for a get together I want to know why they’re being allowed to, these questions are not motivated by ideology but on what the people in charge are doing to reduce the number of deaths and the bad news.

If we don’t say anything now, then I can guarantee someone will be along to say you didn’t say anything at the time and are therefore complicit or it’s over now what’s the point in raking over things past.

 

[Nobby_Barnes]

Some good posts on here...

I don't vote and haven't done for some time. My theory, it doesn't matter whose in government it doesn't really make much difference. If labour were in power for the last 10 years would they have put more money into the NHS ? Maybe, but then something else suffers, the economy, money for charities etc. They you all moan about unemployment, inflation the price of the £. etc. Would they have been able to source the PPE via existing supply chains and using the same civil servants to buy it, probably not. Would Labours approach to lock down have been any different if they were being advised by the same scientific advisors, probably not....

It just goes round and round. The blame game doesn't have any positives in my opinion...

 

[boromike85]

Admittedly I've not read this whole thread but with all of the bashing and blaming there are some facts that people ignore.

1. Not enough PPE. True and it isn't good enough but wouldn't have any real impact on the number of deaths.
2. Not enough ventilators. Only an issue when we reach capacity which we avoided so wasn't an issue so didn't cause excess deaths.
3. Underfunded NHS for 10 years. True again but we haven't exceeded capacity so isn't a cause of excess deaths.
4. Not enough critical care beds. Again, we aren't at capacity, we even have brand new hospitals built that have no patients.
5. Not enough tests. An issue which has key workers off work unnecessarily which again isn't a cause of excess deaths because we haven't exceeded capacity.
6. Deaths in Care Homes. Social care is underfunded, always has been. This is an issue. There have been suggestions people have been dying in care homes instead of being sent to hospital because hospitals can't cope though which is false. There are just more people in care homes that are in the demographic that are vulnerable to the virus and so that's why there have been more deaths there.

The media have blown a lot of things out of proportion. Things that are issues but haven't been the cause for excess deaths but they need scandals to keep the news interesting because there is nothing else going on for them to report on. We actually have empty hospitals and doctors, nurses and healthcare workers with no work because we have cancelled everything else. That will have knock-on effects that could be worse than covid itself.

So, why have we had more deaths than other countries? It's hard to say. We are almost certainly recording deaths differently, there isn't an international standard. There is no way China have only had the deaths they claim for example. We are a hub, people from all over the world come here, London especially. The transport situation there is mostly public so close quarters and more likely to get the virus. The public refuse to adhere to the guidelines. Maybe we weren't strict enough with lockdown.

There are certainly things that the government have failed at but the majority of those things haven't been the cause of excess deaths. We will only really know after seeing annual figures whether deaths were excess or whether the early rise in the year is offset by lower deaths later in the year. Obviously people dying early is terrible but if the measures we have put in place mean we have the same number of deaths as we would have done anyway then you could argue that it was dealt with appropriately. That will only be possible once it is all over though.

 

[American_Mary]

Some good posts on here...

I don't vote and haven't done for some time. My theory, it doesn't matter whose in government it doesn't really make much difference. If labour were in power for the last 10 years would they have put more money into the NHS ? Maybe, but then something else suffers, the economy, money for charities etc. They you all moan about unemployment, inflation the price of the £. etc. Would they have been able to source the PPE via existing supply chains and using the same civil servants to buy it, probably not. Would Labours approach to lock down have been any different if they were being advised by the same scientific advisors, probably not....

It just goes round and round. The blame game doesn't have any positives in my opinion...

And they’d be getting exactly the same scrutiny if it wasn’t, the idea is to learn from mistakes and identifying those things that we get wrong and rectifying them, I respect what you’re saying in it’s swings and roundabouts, but I think arguing about political ideology at a time like this is wasted but focusing on incompetence and what could and should of easily been done better is reasonable, especially if it can help towards saving lives and keeping people safe.

 

[1finny]

I started watching wall to wall news hoping for a glimmer of light until my wife & son told me off

Going out on my bike soon finny, not at your level, hardly been out on it this yerar so going for a couple of miles as a warm up, hope youre still doing likewise

Funny enough, going out from about 11.00 to 13.00 - bit chilly mind so get well wrapped up.

 

[Nobby_Barnes]

Nobody mentioned the Nightingale hospitals. Fantastic effort IMO.
We saw what was happening in Italy with them being overloaded and responded accordingly...

Looks like they might not be required BUT NOBODY'S MENTIONED it. And people have the gall to saw it's not political !

 

[Laughing]

Admittedly I've not read this whole thread but with all of the bashing and blaming there are some facts that people ignore.

1. Not enough PPE. True and it isn't good enough but wouldn't have any real impact on the number of deaths.
2. Not enough ventilators. Only an issue when we reach capacity which we avoided so wasn't an issue so didn't cause excess deaths.
3. Underfunded NHS for 10 years. True again but we haven't exceeded capacity so isn't a cause of excess deaths.
4. Not enough critical care beds. Again, we aren't at capacity, we even have brand new hospitals built that have no patients.
5. Not enough tests. An issue which has key workers off work unnecessarily which again isn't a cause of excess deaths because we haven't exceeded capacity.
6. Deaths in Care Homes. Social care is underfunded, always has been. This is an issue. There have been suggestions people have been dying in care homes instead of being sent to hospital because hospitals can't cope though which is false. There are just more people in care homes that are in the demographic that are vulnerable to the virus and so that's why there have been more deaths there.

The media have blown a lot of things out of proportion. Things that are issues but haven't been the cause for excess deaths but they need scandals to keep the news interesting because there is nothing else going on for them to report on. We actually have empty hospitals and doctors, nurses and healthcare workers with no work because we have cancelled everything else. That will have knock-on effects that could be worse than covid itself.

So, why have we had more deaths than other countries? It's hard to say. We are almost certainly recording deaths differently, there isn't an international standard. There is no way China have only had the deaths they claim for example. We are a hub, people from all over the world come here, London especially. The transport situation there is mostly public so close quarters and more likely to get the virus. The public refuse to adhere to the guidelines. Maybe we weren't strict enough with lockdown.

There are certainly things that the government have failed at but the majority of those things haven't been the cause of excess deaths. We will only really know after seeing annual figures whether deaths were excess or whether the early rise in the year is offset by lower deaths later in the year. Obviously people dying early is terrible but if the measures we have put in place mean we have the same number of deaths as we would have done anyway then you could argue that it was dealt with appropriately. That will only be possible once it is all over though.

Boromike I can't let that go unchallenged.

PPE - probably didn't cause any uneccessary deaths - well except for the 100 or so nurses and doctors. Reusing the same mask for multiple patients loads patients with excess of the virus. So you are wrong on this one.

Ventilators.. This is a difficult one. you may be right, maybe not I don't know how many spare ventilators we have and how many additional patients could have benefited from being on a ventilator.

The NHS has not reached capacity - No it hasn't because elective surgery was cancelled and older people in care homes were left to die there. People have died without Covid-19 to keep the NHS below capacity. In normal times these people in care hiomes would have been transferred to hospitals.

Critical care beds not at capacity and new hospitals not used - see the above point about care homes and elective surgery. Hospitals are told they can transfer patients to a nightingale hospital, but they have to provide the care team, which they cannot do, they don't have the staff.

I will leave it there Boromike, your comments are just plain uninformed. I get what you are trying to say, it just isn't very accurate.

 

[anonn]

Boromike I can't let that go unchallenged.

PPE - probably didn't cause any uneccessary deaths - well except for the 100 or so nurses and doctors. Reusing the same mask for multiple patients loads patients with excess of the virus. So you are wrong on this one.

Ventilators.. This is a difficult one. you may be right, maybe not I don't know how many spare ventilators we have and how many additional patients could have benefited from being on a ventilator.

The NHS has not reached capacity - No it hasn't because elective surgery was cancelled and older people in care homes were left to die there. People have died without Covid-19 to keep the NHS below capacity. In normal times these people in care hiomes would have been transferred to hospitals.

Critical care beds not at capacity and new hospitals not used - see the above point about care homes and elective surgery. Hospitals are told they can transfer patients to a nightingale hospital, but they have to provide the care team, which they cannot do, they don't have the staff.

I will leave it there Boromike, your comments are just plain uninformed. I get what you are trying to say, it just isn't very accurate.

Glad someone said this. Jesus Mike....

 

[Randy]

Nobody mentioned the Nightingale hospitals. Fantastic effort IMO.
We saw what was happening in Italy with them being overloaded and responded accordingly...

Looks like they might not be required BUT NOBODY'S MENTIONED it. And people have the gall to saw it's not political !

Another great point.

I see people actually moaning that they aren't in use like it's a bad thing.

Also

 

[boromike85]

I will leave it there Boromike, your comments are just plain uninformed. I get what you are trying to say, it just isn't very accurate.

They aren't uninformed. Quite the opposite. I work in a hospital so I know what the situation is.

The NHS staff that have died from covid. How many of them contracted it due to not having PPE and not because they caught it at the supermarket for example or they caught it even while having the correct PPE? When I say no excess deaths I mean as a total. I wasn't commenting on individual patients.

Our hospital has 40% bed occupancy, half usual levels and we are building a brand new ward in the car park. Nowhere near capacity. We have 12 critical care beds dedicated to covid, the highest occupancy at any one time has been 5, it is currently 0. We are not turning people away and leaving them to die in care homes. When people are near death and there is nothing that can be done for them we allow them to die where they will be more comfortable. We have more deaths now but it isn't because we don't have capacity.

 

[JM14]

Admittedly I've not read this whole thread but with all of the bashing and blaming there are some facts that people ignore.

1. Not enough PPE. True and it isn't good enough but wouldn't have any real impact on the number of deaths.
2. Not enough ventilators. Only an issue when we reach capacity which we avoided so wasn't an issue so didn't cause excess deaths.
3. Underfunded NHS for 10 years. True again but we haven't exceeded capacity so isn't a cause of excess deaths.
4. Not enough critical care beds. Again, we aren't at capacity, we even have brand new hospitals built that have no patients.
5. Not enough tests. An issue which has key workers off work unnecessarily which again isn't a cause of excess deaths because we haven't exceeded capacity.
6. Deaths in Care Homes. Social care is underfunded, always has been. This is an issue. There have been suggestions people have been dying in care homes instead of being sent to hospital because hospitals can't cope though which is false. There are just more people in care homes that are in the demographic that are vulnerable to the virus and so that's why there have been more deaths there.

The media have blown a lot of things out of proportion. Things that are issues but haven't been the cause for excess deaths but they need scandals to keep the news interesting because there is nothing else going on for them to report on. We actually have empty hospitals and doctors, nurses and healthcare workers with no work because we have cancelled everything else. That will have knock-on effects that could be worse than covid itself.

So, why have we had more deaths than other countries? It's hard to say. We are almost certainly recording deaths differently, there isn't an international standard. There is no way China have only had the deaths they claim for example. We are a hub, people from all over the world come here, London especially. The transport situation there is mostly public so close quarters and more likely to get the virus. The public refuse to adhere to the guidelines. Maybe we weren't strict enough with lockdown.

There are certainly things that the government have failed at but the majority of those things haven't been the cause of excess deaths. We will only really know after seeing annual figures whether deaths were excess or whether the early rise in the year is offset by lower deaths later in the year. Obviously people dying early is terrible but if the measures we have put in place mean we have the same number of deaths as we would have done anyway then you could argue that it was dealt with appropriately. That will only be possible once it is all over though.

Healthcare workers are currently dying, and many more will die because they arent properly protected.

Seeing people having to work with some cheap face mask and a face visor which some local charity has made, how can this be allowed to happen? This is an absolute disgrace and anyone who doesnt want the government questioned on this is completely wrong.


Also we only recorded deaths in hospitals until yesterday, so with the amount dying in care homes and the community, deaths will actually be much much higher than we are seeing now

 

[JM14]

Another great point.

I see people actually moaning that they aren't in use like it's a bad thing.

Also

View attachment 2262

Struggle to comprehend how much of an idiot matt le tissier is at times.

Surely its the medias job to report whats actually happening? Does he just want to bury his head and pretend that people arent actually dying because it will help him stay positive?

 

[Randy]

Also I'd like to add the hospitals turning people away from care homes isn't quite correct.

One of the homes my wife works in has a resident with breathing difficulties that she has suffered with for many years. She took a particularly bad turn about 10 or so days and was taken to hospital.
The resident returned back to the care home yesterday with a negative covid-19 test. Now I'm not saying some residents of care homes aren't been taken to hospital but unless you know their personal care plan then you cannot comment on the reasons why.

 

[Laughing]

They aren't uninformed. Quite the opposite. I work in a hospital so I know what the situation is.

The NHS staff that have died from covid. How many of them contracted it due to not having PPE and not because they caught it at the supermarket for example or they caught it even while having the correct PPE? When I say no excess deaths I mean as a total. I wasn't commenting on individual patients.

Our hospital has 40% bed occupancy, half usual levels and we are building a brand new ward in the car park. Nowhere near capacity. We have 12 critical care beds dedicated to covid, the highest occupancy at any one time has been 5, it is currently 0. We are not turning people away and leaving them to die in care homes. When people are near death and there is nothing that can be done for them we allow them to die where they will be more comfortable. We have more deaths now but it isn't because we don't have capacity.

You know the situation in your hospital BoroMike, not all hospitals.

You don't know how so many doctors and nurses are dying, but it may not be because of lack of PPE, they may have caught it in a supernmarket... Hmm. Doctors and nurses are dispproportianally dying when compared with the rest of the population given there age ranges and lack of underlying health conditions. That suggests that they are being loaded with the virus, not catching a small dose from a tesco trolly.

They are not using PPE correctly - Hmm again. Where was the pandemic response preparation and why did the doctors and nurses not have refesher training on using PPE?

You don't know Boromike, neither do I but I can apply critical thinking to the situation and reach reasonable conclusions. You have given some annecdotal evidence and said you don't know with nothing to back up your response. You may well be right, I haven't seen any evidence that you are right.

 

[Randy]

Struggle to comprehend how much of an idiot matt le tissier is at times.

Surely its the medias job to report whats actually happening? Does he just want to bury his head and pretend that people arent actually dying because it will help him stay positive?

You are missing the point, when the deaths were high they were top of the agenda on every news website.
Now they are lowering every day for the past few days the daily death rate is no longer important to them