Tory Voters

Borobuddah said:
I was following the late Tony Benn’s line of reasoning, and the stance of Dennis Skinner, Arthur Scargill, SWP etc.
I was worried about the rise of the far right Parties across Europe gaining seats, thought that it might bring democracy closer to the ordinary voter (we already have the House of Lords over the House of Commons) more remote decision making in the EU not being a good thing. Finally that the EU was a rich businessman’s club.
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Do you still think all those reasons were correct?
 
Borobuddah said:
Mostly yes, I think I did the right thing at the time.
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I'm sure you did think you were doing the right thing and I am not having a go or mocking, deriding you or in any way trying to belittle you, but I see some potential glaring errors in just the reasoning you have highlighted.

Based on your respect for Benn, Skinner and Scargill, is it fair to say that you are on the left when it comes to politics?
 
So, a couple of questions for you on that.

Are you aware that there is a phenomenon that once we form an opinion it is very difficult for us to change - it's one of the reasons I have a lot of respect for you here - particularly so when it comes to political questions and really difficult if it plays into an ideology you have conviction with?

These guys formed their opinions on the EU in the 1970's didn't they? Corbyn also.

So, on that, it is quite possible that these men have fallen into that very human trap. We all do it.

Is it intelligent to judge an organisation or a system on opinions formed based on what it was like 40 odd years ago, or is it more intelligent to judge it based on what it is like now?


In the 1970's the Tories were very much in favour of joining the EU, it was the Labour Party that were split. In 2016 the reverse was true.

Why would that happen? Does it make more sense that the EU must have shown it was actually more helpful to the Left and a brake on the Right rather than the Conservatives and Labour had actually swapped ideologies?

And when you placed your vote, you were aware that the Conservatives were in power for another four years under the FTPA?

In terms of setting a new agenda and framework, would you agree the most important period is right at the start?

Who is more in control of setting an agenda usually, the Government or the opposition?
 
I fully understand why the poor voted out, they question what they had gained.

Like most issues they will not have a massive effect on me as I am comfortable and boringly middle of the road.

I am far more convinced now on the reason for leaving than I was in the polling booth. Then I was tarred as supporting UKIP and the Tory toffs.
 
Lefty said:
These guys formed their opinions on the EU in the 1970's didn't they? Corbyn also.

So, on that, it is quite possible that these men have fallen into that very human trap. We all do it.

Is it intelligent to judge an organisation or a system on opinions formed based on what it was like 40 odd years ago, or is it more intelligent to judge it based on what it is like now?
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Their reservations then were based on flooding the labour market in the UK being for the benefit of big businesses in suppressing wage inflation and being bad for the workers in the UK. They were 100% correct as that is what has happened. The reason labour have switched sides is because they no longer care about or represent the low paid workers in the UK. They are now far more interested in city dwellers, students and immigrants. They have cosied up to businesses and the unions no longer have any power. It's a big reason why they can no longer rely on the traditional Labour heartlands.
 
Same_as_before said:
I fully understand why the poor voted out, they question what they had gained.

Like most issues they will not have a massive effect on me as I am comfortable and boringly middle of the road.

I am far more convinced now on the reason for leaving than I was in the polling booth. Then I was tarred as supporting UKIP and the Tory toffs.
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There are numerous failings of logic and reasoning in this.

You understanding that the poor voted the way they did because they have grievances is not the same as the poor understanding

1) Their grievances are largely not the fault of the EU
2) Things could easily have been a lot worse
3) Things could get a lot worse.
 
Thats a view, now tell me what they gained.

E.g. Law, we have local magistrates, local judges, crown court judges, the supreme court and the HoL, why is a further level required?

The euro, we are not in it.

taxes; what will change?

Financial services and the supporting them it? We did not need help from the EC, Ireland came with the begging bowl to the UK.

Jobs market, why will Jobs go abroad? Our rate of unemployment us much better than the EC average particular the under 25s.

The poor gained nothing
 
Lefty said:
So, a couple of questions for you on that.

Are you aware that there is a phenomenon that once we form an opinion it is very difficult for us to change - it's one of the reasons I have a lot of respect for you here - particularly so when it comes to political questions and really difficult if it plays into an ideology you have conviction with?
Indeed

These guys formed their opinions on the EU in the 1970's didn't they? Corbyn also. Perhaps, but they may have reviewed them since as the political context and the nature of the

So, on that, it is quite possible that these men have fallen into that very human trap. We all do it.

Is it intelligent to judge an organisation or a system on opinions formed based on what it was like 40 odd years ago, or is it more intelligent to judge it based on what it is like now?

On what it’s like now, but history is important, the Daily Mail and ‘Hurrah for the brown shirts’ For example

In the 1970's the Tories were very much in favour of joining the EU, it was the Labour Party that were split. In 2016 the reverse was true.

Why would that happen? Does it make more sense that the EU must have shown it was actually more helpful to the Left and a brake on the Right rather than the Conservatives and Labour had actually swapped ideologies?

ideologies had changed somewhat, Blairism dragged the Labour Party back from socialism to the centre ground to compete with the Tories, who have been split on Europe For a long time

And when you placed your vote, you were aware that the Conservatives were in power for another four years under the FTPA?
I voted labour in the GE

In terms of setting a new agenda and framework, would you agree the most important period is right at the start?

Who is more in control of setting an agenda usually, the Government or the opposition?
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I find myself at a disadvantage here, I don’t know where you are coming from politically, nor the Motive for the academic quizzing you are doing ?

I have attempted to give brief answers above
 
boromike85 said:
Their reservations then were based on flooding the labour market in the UK being for the benefit of big businesses in suppressing wage inflation and being bad for the workers in the UK. They were 100% correct as that is what has happened. The reason labour have switched sides is because they no longer care about or represent the low paid workers in the UK. They are now far more interested in city dwellers, students and immigrants. They have cosied up to businesses and the unions no longer have any power. It's a big reason why they can no longer rely on the traditional Labour heartlands.
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I'll leave others to disagree with the specific claims here, but I will link to a pre-referendum article showing that the major unions were urging members to vote Remain, so that alone ought to tell you your claims must be wrong.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/netuf/2016/06/06/uk-trade-unions-come-out-against-brexit/
 
Borobuddah said:
I find myself at a disadvantage here, I don’t know where you are coming from politically, nor the Motive for the academic quizzing you are doing ?

I have attempted to give brief answers above
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I'm left of centre politically, though I'd like to think, because I place the highest value on science and critical thinking, that I would favour practicality over ideology. I am certain I do not always manage to do so.

It's not important what my philosphy or politics are though, I'm trying to judge you - scratch that - I'm trying to get you to judge yourself by your own usual standards of logic and reason, which I am sure are as good as mine if not better.
 
Same_as_before said:
Are you saying we have to follow the lead of Trade Union leaders?
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Not at all.

This is the problem with these threads - tangents everywhere.

Boromike didn't really answer the general questions I put to Borobuddah, but he did make some assertions about the Labour concerns in the 1970's and about the Labour Party in 2016 having shifted to Remain from being very split because it had moved away from the working class and the unions. It can't be true if you look at my link and you understand that actually the Labour Party got it's funding still largely from the Unions.
 
Perhaps I should approach this from another angle on a thread of it's own next week?
 
Thanks for your concern, but I already judge myself, that’s why I have reflected on my leave vote.

Obviously I question my logic and reasoning, I may have demonstrated that already?

of course your politics and philosophy are important, given the last point about all brexiteers are stupid as the Title of a continued discussion?
If you just want an argument about that then count me out
 
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