Vaping is rank

[Laughing]

This. It's just Big Tobacco extending its product range to recruit new addicts as it kills off its existing customer base

And the government already have legislation they can apply, but they choose not to. They could insist on plain packaging, for example.they could take them off display too.

The law needs enforcing, first and foremost as this government won't do anything about this,we know this because they have t he instruments to do so, and they haven't bothered.

 

[BoroMart]

And the government already have legislation they can apply, but they choose not to. They could insist on plain packaging, for example.they could take them off display too.

The law needs enforcing, first and foremost as this government won't do anything about this,we know this because they have t he instruments to do so, and they haven't bothered.

The law needs improving so that the jeopardy for shop owners that sell to kids is greater too.

 

[Laughing]

The law needs improving so that the jeopardy for shop owners that sell to kids is greater too.

Or just ban single use vapes? There is no reall will fom the current government to look after the citizens, non-at-all. This isn't surprising, surely?

 

[BoroMart]

Or just ban single use vapes? There is no reall will fom the current government to look after the citizens, non-at-all. This isn't surprising, surely?

Both, as they will start using liquids.

 

[Laughing]

Both, as they will start using liquids.

Why would you ban refillable vapes? There is zero evidence kids are using them. Furthermore, currently its perfectly legal for a child to buy a vape and zero nicotine liquid.

The legislation is poor and unimplemented. You want vapes banned because you don't like them. Thats fair enough but at least be honest about it.

If looking after children's welfare was the primary motive you would want legislation to ban other things like alcohol that are extremely dangerous to developing brains.

 

[BoroMart]

Why would you ban refillable vapes? There is zero evidence kids are using them. Furthermore, currently its perfectly legal for a child to buy a vape and zero nicotine liquid.

The legislation is poor and unimplemented. You want vapes banned because you don't like them. Thats fair enough but at least be honest about it.

If looking after children's welfare was the primary motive you would want legislation to ban other things like alcohol that are extremely dangerous to developing brains.

By ‘both’ I was referring to both my suggestion of increasing jeopardy to shop keepers selling to kids and your suggestion of remove single use vapes. If liquids are the only option for millions of kids hooked on vapes, they’ll try and buy them.

I don’t propose banning vapes. I propose banning their use in public spaces just as happened with cigarettes. If vapers want that muck in their lungs, that’s their risk. I shouldn’t be subject to any discomfort, risk, unpleasantness from their life choices.

 

[Laughing]

By ‘both’ I was referring to both my suggestion of increasing jeopardy to shop keepers selling to kids and your suggestion of remove single use vapes. If liquids are the only option for millions of kids hooked on vapes, they’ll try and buy them.

I don’t propose banning vapes. I propose banning their use in public spaces just as happened with cigarettes. If vapers want that muck in their lungs, that’s their risk. I shouldn’t be subject to any discomfort, risk, unpleasantness from their life choices.

My mistake mate

 

[Andy_W]

Surely the first step is to stop marketing to kids?

I don't think they're marketed at kids, just because they have colours which reflect the contents/ flavour.

You need the different flavours to make them suit those who want to get away from smoking, as they don't have the same hit as smoking so most need them to be sweet or better tasting etc.

Or just ban single use vapes? There is no reall will fom the current government to look after the citizens, non-at-all. This isn't surprising, surely?

Even as someone who doesn't use these 99% of the time, I think you still need these, basically for the casual smokers, or those who end up with dead batteries or a broken vape on a night out etc (which has happened to me a few times). If you take the disposable ones away then you will get more people going back to smoking. Actual smoking is like snakes and ladders, it only takes a couple of cigarettes and the next day you're buying a pack.

I don’t propose banning vapes. I propose banning their use in public spaces just as happened with cigarettes. If vapers want that muck in their lungs, that’s their risk. I shouldn’t be subject to any discomfort, risk, unpleasantness from their life choices.

Vaping, or second hand vape isn't a similar risk to cigarettes though, it's effectively nicotine only, in much smaller doses which is much harder to absorb, especially second-hand. It's got none of the tar or other bad products, and the only other products in them are in the food that everyone eats.

The risk of seeing someone else with an alcoholic drink, chocolate bar, or some other junk, triggering the thought of wanting some junk yourself is probably worse, or at least equal. Booze and junk aren't going to get banned in public or public view, so vaping in public open spaces shouldn't.

 

[BoroMart]

I don't think they're marketed at kids, just because they have colours which reflect the contents/ flavour.

You need the different flavours to make them suit those who want to get away from smoking, as they don't have the same hit as smoking so most need them to be sweet or better tasting etc.


Even as someone who doesn't use these 99% of the time, I think you still need these, basically for the casual smokers, or those who end up with dead batteries or a broken vape on a night out etc (which has happened to me a few times). If you take the disposable ones away then you will get more people going back to smoking. Actual smoking is like snakes and ladders, it only takes a couple of cigarettes and the next day you're buying a pack.


Vaping, or second hand vape isn't a similar risk to cigarettes though, it's effectively nicotine only, in much smaller doses which is much harder to absorb, especially second-hand. It's got none of the tar or other bad products, and the only other products in them are in the food that everyone eats.

The risk of seeing someone else with an alcoholic drink, chocolate bar, or some other junk, triggering the thought of wanting some junk yourself is probably worse, or at least equal. Booze and junk aren't going to get banned in public or public view, so vaping in public open spaces shouldn't.

A) of course it’s marketed at kids with bright colours cheap disposables and names that are childish and that’s before the sweet flavourings

B) It might not be as harmful as cigarettes (this hasn’t been objectively proven by the way as there isn’t enough long term data) but I shouldn’t be subject to your habits and risk regardless of how minimal that is. I don’t have any ability to avoid a plume of smoke, I get the choice to fight the urge for a drink or chocolate bar…it’s a rediculous comparison. I’m more than happy for you to chuff these as much as you like, but I don’t want to inhale it thanks

 

[Laughing]

I don't think they're marketed at kids, just because they have colours which reflect the contents/ flavour.

You need the different flavours to make them suit those who want to get away from smoking, as they don't have the same hit as smoking so most need them to be sweet or better tasting etc.


Even as someone who doesn't use these 99% of the time, I think you still need these, basically for the casual smokers, or those who end up with dead batteries or a broken vape on a night out etc (which has happened to me a few times). If you take the disposable ones away then you will get more people going back to smoking. Actual smoking is like snakes and ladders, it only takes a couple of cigarettes and the next day you're buying a pack.


Vaping, or second hand vape isn't a similar risk to cigarettes though, it's effectively nicotine only, in much smaller doses which is much harder to absorb, especially second-hand. It's got none of the tar or other bad products, and the only other products in them are in the food that everyone eats.

The risk of seeing someone else with an alcoholic drink, chocolate bar, or some other junk, triggering the thought of wanting some junk yourself is probably worse, or at least equal. Booze and junk aren't going to get banned in public or public view, so vaping in public open spaces shouldn't.

They are marketed at kids, I think this is undeniable. Look at the names. Let's just pick a few random ones. Elf bar, Crystal bar, Dinner lady.

Are you seriously suggesting these are not marketed at children?

 

[BoroMart]

They are marketed at kids, I think this is undeniable. Look at the names. Let's just pick a few random ones. Elf bar, Crystal bar, Dinner lady.

Are you seriously suggesting these are not marketed at children?

Anyone who argues otherwise is lacking objectivity. For a reputedly “not marketed at kids” it’s don’t a fücking good job of getting millions of kids hooked to it.

 

[Andy_W]

They are marketed at kids, I think this is undeniable. Look at the names. Let's just pick a few random ones. Elf bar, Crystal bar, Dinner lady.

Are you seriously suggesting these are not marketed at children?

ELF stands for E-Liquid Flavour I think, and the bar is just describing what it is, ie E-Liquid Flavour Stick, ELFBAR sounds better than ELFSTICK. I've not heard of the crystal or dinner lady ones.

I don't think they're marketed at children, they're not legal for children, but could see how it could be incidentally appealing. Nowhere near as bad as chocolate bars and sweets etc, which are 100% directly aimed at them, and them only.

 

[Laughing]

ELF stands for E-Liquid Flavour I think, and the bar is just describing what it is, ie E-Liquid Flavour Stick, ELFBAR sounds better than ELFSTICK. I've not heard of the crystal or dinner lady ones.

I don't think they're marketed at children, they're not legal for children, but could see how it could be incidentally appealing. Nowhere near as bad as chocolate bars and sweets etc, which are 100% directly aimed at them, and them only.

I usually like a row with you Andy. I wouldn't even bother on this subject because you are demonstrably wrong. You don't have an argument here.

Chinese vaping giant flouting UK advertising rules on selling to children

Observer investigation finds Chinese-owned brand Elf Bar is fuelling the boom in e-cigarettes among young people as social media influencers on TikTok promote its goods in an apparent breach of advertising rules

www.theguardian.com

 

[Priv]

The law needs improving so that the jeopardy for shop owners that sell to kids is greater too.

100% they need to bring in huge fines in the region of 50% annual turnover as well as confiscation of assets likely to of been purchased with their ill gotten gains and if needs be some jail time with proceeds going to addiction services.

 

[Andy_W]

I usually like a row with you Andy. I wouldn't even bother on this subject because you are demonstrably wrong. You don't have an argument here.

Chinese vaping giant flouting UK advertising rules on selling to children

Observer investigation finds Chinese-owned brand Elf Bar is fuelling the boom in e-cigarettes among young people as social media influencers on TikTok promote its goods in an apparent breach of advertising rules

www.theguardian.com

Didn't realise they were doing that, and of course they (brands and influencers) should be banned for that (if it's true what the "influencers" are saying, about being paid for it). Looks like something may be being done on that aspect though https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/tiktok-elf-bar-asa-b2335907.html

TikTok are dodgy though, and should be doing a lot more as well, any many areas, they shouldn't allow influencers to promote products directly at kids which are illegal for kids, or on channels which are aimed at kids. I don't use tick-tock mind, so I haven't seen anything myself.

They're Chinese owned, but have a business registered in the UK, which should be fined (and then banned), if true.

I don't think it's an excuse to ban the products though, or the coloured packaging. Like I said before, the colours match the product, and they're proven to not be anywhere near as damaging as cigarettes, direct, or passive.

The problems are weak regulation of laws and processes we already have in place, and losing control over social media, especially the dodgy ones.

 

[Laughing]

Didn't realise they were doing that, and of course they (brands and influencers) should be banned for that (if it's true what the "influencers" are saying, about being paid for it). Looks like something may be being done on that aspect though https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/tiktok-elf-bar-asa-b2335907.html

TikTok are dodgy though, and should be doing a lot more as well, any many areas, they shouldn't allow influencers to promote products directly at kids which are illegal for kids, or on channels which are aimed at kids. I don't use tick-tock mind, so I haven't seen anything myself.

They're Chinese owned, but have a business registered in the UK, which should be fined (and then banned), if true.

I don't think it's an excuse to ban the products though, or the coloured packaging. Like I said before, the colours match the product, and they're proven to not be anywhere near as damaging as cigarettes, direct, or passive.

The problems are weak regulation of laws and processes we already have in place, and losing control over social media, especially the dodgy ones.

Some of that may be true, it doesn't diminish the fact that they ARE targetted at children. There isn't a single argument to refute that.

Are you actually trying to tell folks that the one use vapes pictured below are targetted at 50 year old blokes who once smoked 40 rollups a day? Really?

I sit somewhere between you and the folks who want all vaping banned, b ecause they don't like it. But, c'mon you are being ridiculous

 

[sweet_left_foot]

They are marketed at kids, I think this is undeniable. Look at the names. Let's just pick a few random ones. Elf bar, Crystal bar, Dinner lady.

Are you seriously suggesting these are not marketed at children?

Don't think I would have wanted to suck off a dinner lady.

 

[Andy_W]

Some of that may be true, it doesn't diminish the fact that they ARE targetted at children. There isn't a single argument to refute that.

Are you actually trying to tell folks that the one use vapes pictured below are targetted at 50 year old blokes who once smoked 40 rollups a day? Really?

I sit somewhere between you and the folks who want all vaping banned, b ecause they don't like it. But, c'mon you are being ridiculous

View attachment 59042

The argument is they have to have a colour, and the legal people buying these would want them to have some sort of colour, like on a phone case or whatever.

Of course I'm not saying they're aimed at a 50-year-old bloke, smoking roll up's. They won't be buying these anyway, regardless of the colour, they're a totally different market. A disposable vape doesn't have the power or strength to replace roll-ups or cigarettes, it's a mile off. Those types will either still be smoking roll-ups or they'll be on refillable, with big batteries and the strong/ hardcore tobacco-flavoured liquid which is absolutely horrendous. Most of these types of devices are usually a lot blander, or black.

The disposables look more aimed at women, and probably younger folk in their 20's and early 30's. The vast majority of them will be sold to young adults and casual vapers, so that's what the marketing will get aimed at. Will teens still want the same thing, sure. Younger folk just generally like colours, and to stand out in any way possible, older folk, not so much.

There's no reason to ban vaping, it's not proven to be harmful in any way, it surely has to be behind the banning list of junk food, booze and actual cigarettes, which we know cause significant damage. The stuff actually directly aimed at kids only is worse, like sweets with cartoon characters, sugary cereals, McDonalds happy meals, there's a very long list.

Like I've said previously, evidence suggests nicotine is about as dangerous as caffeine, and nobody is asking for tea or coffee to be banned, not even the massively high-calorie coffees etc. What about the massively high-sugar energy drinks which have similar marketing as disposable vapes, and likely do more damage.

Sure, people shouldn't be rude, and use vapes near people in enclosed spaces etc (or not chugging out massive clouds), but how often does this actually happen to people really? How often can people not get away from it, and why? Not saying they should have to move away from it, but there's usually an option to distance from it.

64% of adults in the UK are overweight or obese.
24% of children in reception are overweight or obese
40% of children 11 years old are overweight or obese

People should be making noises about banning junk food (for all ages) before they go after vaping, then same with booze, and of course a full ban on cigarettes. It's unlikely to happen anytime soon though, maybe other than cigarettes but that ban could still be 10 or 20 years away.

One of the funny side effects of nicotine is that it's also an appetite suppressant, so for some, a vape can help them stop snacking on junk and might actually be doing some a favour. It actually helps me in this respect, massively, but not saying that we should go and start prescribing nicotine to overweight people though etc.

How many people wanting vapes banned have been buying their kids junk, or giving them money for junk, or are overweight themselves, and would they want their junk and booze taken away?

 

[Andy_W]

Don't think I would have wanted to suck off a dinner lady.

I don't think you're allowed to call them dinner ladies these days, but the removal of the term could probably lead to some surprises when they pull their pants down.

 

[Laughing]

The argument is they have to have a colour, and the legal people buying these would want them to have some sort of colour, like on a phone case or whatever.

Of course I'm not saying they're aimed at a 50-year-old bloke, smoking roll up's. They won't be buying these anyway, regardless of the colour, they're a totally different market. A disposable vape doesn't have the power or strength to replace roll-ups or cigarettes, it's a mile off. Those types will either still be smoking roll-ups or they'll be on refillable, with big batteries and the strong/ hardcore tobacco-flavoured liquid which is absolutely horrendous. Most of these types of devices are usually a lot blander, or black.

The disposables look more aimed at women, and probably younger folk in their 20's and early 30's. The vast majority of them will be sold to young adults and casual vapers, so that's what the marketing will get aimed at. Will teens still want the same thing, sure. Younger folk just generally like colours, and to stand out in any way possible, older folk, not so much.

There's no reason to ban vaping, it's not proven to be harmful in any way, it surely has to be behind the banning list of junk food, booze and actual cigarettes, which we know cause significant damage. The stuff actually directly aimed at kids only is worse, like sweets with cartoon characters, sugary cereals, McDonalds happy meals, there's a very long list.

Like I've said previously, evidence suggests nicotine is about as dangerous as caffeine, and nobody is asking for tea or coffee to be banned, not even the massively high-calorie coffees etc. What about the massively high-sugar energy drinks which have similar marketing as disposable vapes, and likely do more damage.

Sure, people shouldn't be rude, and use vapes near people in enclosed spaces etc (or not chugging out massive clouds), but how often does this actually happen to people really? How often can people not get away from it, and why? Not saying they should have to move away from it, but there's usually an option to distance from it.

64% of adults in the UK are overweight or obese.
24% of children in reception are overweight or obese
40% of children 11 years old are overweight or obese

People should be making noises about banning junk food (for all ages) before they go after vaping, then same with booze, and of course a full ban on cigarettes. It's unlikely to happen anytime soon though, maybe other than cigarettes but that ban could still be 10 or 20 years away.

One of the funny side effects of nicotine is that it's also an appetite suppressant, so for some, a vape can help them stop snacking on junk and might actually be doing some a favour. It actually helps me in this respect, massively, but not saying that we should go and start prescribing nicotine to overweight people though etc.

How many people wanting vapes banned have been buying their kids junk, or giving them money for junk, or are overweight themselves, and would they want their junk and booze taken away?

Not wishing to be rude but I am not reading your post. If you are still trying to say they aren't marketed at children, knock yourself out. I am not about to argue whilst you ignore direct evidence that they are.