Warnock was holding us back

Rofesleg said:
I thank him and respect him for saving us from relegation and for stabilising the club in the first 6 months of the next season.
What I don't accept is the insistence that he worked a miracle in avoiding relegation, or that the terrible results in 2021 were nothing to do with him, or that injuries prevented him from ever playing his preferred defenders, or that it wasn't the correct time to appoint a new manager, or that his record was comparable to Karanka's.
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Exactly this.
 
Why people are making this binary I don't know.
IMHO:
1. Warnock did save us that season. We had 9 wins in 38, then he got 4 in 8. That is transformational. Woodgate was doomed and it wasn't clear who of class would come in. Gibson did well in getting Warnock in.
2. Warnock thereafter did not do quite so well, but he did do the job pulis was supposed to do, in slashing wage bill and getting rid of detritus. He was unlucky with injuries, but it is absolutely clear we were treading treacle at best and starting to go backwards. He is in his mid seventies and he is no longer equipped. It was definitely the right time to go and Gibson did well to move him out.
3. Wilder was not my first choice by some way, but what a choice it has been. Everything about him has impressed me from his very first press conference. He really gets the club, the fans, the potential. His impact has been fabulous and I have not been so optimistic since the spring of 2016. Again Gibson has done well.

Warnock deserves thanks and respect, but it was THE right time to go.
Wilder is a fantastic appointment for now and our bright future.
Gibson, after four years of calamitous decisions has got the last three big ones right and I hope he doesn't have to make another one for a decade.
 
We have moved on with Wilder - the interplay in the opposition's half is one example.

Warnock did a decent job in making us a top half team, but Wilder looks well capable of making us a top 6 team.
 
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I hope those so determined to give Warnock all the credit for "assembling" this side are all as keen to give Woodgate the same credit?

After all he definitely had to clear out more deadwood, had less to spend and I believe more than half of what most would now consider our best 11 were also part of Woodgate's team?

Personally I think it's nonsense Warnock has done anything like the job Mowbray did in terms of laying foundations. Let's see how many of his signings are seen as key players when we get promoted under Wilder. I suspect it'll only be Crooks.
 
festa5 said:
Personally I think it's nonsense Warnock has done anything like the job Mowbray did in terms of laying foundations.
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Warnocks signings:
- Grant Hall - permacrock and not good enough, waste of big wage that we will need to get rid of in the summer
- Sam Morsy - in then out, was ok, for a hoofball bypass the midfield side
- Chuba Akpom! How are we gonna get him off our books?
- Watmore - good squad player
- Fisher - another crock
- Lumley - will be on good wages, but isn't more than a reserve quality
- Ameobi - hasn't kicked a ball and possibly never will for us
- Uche - not championship quality
- Peltier - decent squad player, but a short term solution
- Crooks - his gem signing
- Payero - not his signing and barely played him
- Daniels - not good enough
- Olusanya - National LEegue quality

So what are these foundations that Warnock has laid again? He got some players out, or to be more honest they left when contracts ran out and he ailed to motivate them in the last year. He got Bola playing fairly well, and gave Jones a debut, but more misses than hits in that lot
 
festa5 said:
I hope those so determined to give Warnock all the credit for "assembling" this side are all as keen to give Woodgate the same credit?

After all he definitely had to clear out more deadwood, had less to spend and I believe more than half of what most would now consider our best 11 were also part of Woodgate's team?

Personally I think it's nonsense Warnock has done anything like the job Mowbray did in terms of laying foundations. Let's see how many of his signings are seen as key players when we get promoted under Wilder. I suspect it'll only be Crooks.
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I’ve given credit to Woodgate doing a job for us. Keeping the costs down and treading water. It didn’t work out for him here but it was a big job.. other more experienced managers have failed I liked what he was trying to do early doors. I thought him going back to Gestede was a mistake but he took advice from Mowbray and was finding a way to win. I’d like to see Woodgate get back into management as soon as possible.. I thought Hartlepool would have been a good club for him.
 
festa5 said:
I hope those so determined to give Warnock all the credit for "assembling" this side are all as keen to give Woodgate the same credit?

After all he definitely had to clear out more deadwood, had less to spend and I believe more than half of what most would now consider our best 11 were also part of Woodgate's team?

Personally I think it's nonsense Warnock has done anything like the job Mowbray did in terms of laying foundations. Let's see how many of his signings are seen as key players when we get promoted under Wilder. I suspect it'll only be Crooks.
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As you know I don’t believe any of our past managers are responsible for deserving the credit for the majority of signings, they play a part in the process just like several others do and none of them had the casting vote over the owner imho, Woodgate deserves little credit probably the least of anyone since Mogga was appointed, signings and sales of players have gone on that were not necessarily FULLY supported by the head coach or manager. Some confirmed straight from the mouths of the players themselves.

I think, nay, I know that Neil did his fair share of sending certain players packing, building trust and motivation in those that remained and were brought in whether he approved or not. He never once directly or indirectly tried to hold Boro back or to my personal knowledge, not to act in the clubs best interests, but yes he clearly made mistakes like any other manager.

He absolutely wanted success, but the club wanted to move in a direction differently, which i have no issue with, nor did he, and i am sure the current direction is fully justified even if Neil feels somewhat aggrieved as to how things materialised. The issue for me and I think perhaps for Neil was in giving him the go ahead for this season and not appointing Wilder in the summer of 2021. I do wonder if that is in part due to Wilder himself not being ready to commit to Boro then as he now has (maybe, just maybe, he had other irons in his fire at that juncture that never developed). Nevertheless, he is here now, we should all be pleased.

There is nothing to be gained by a bit of Warnock bashing as far as I can see it just pits supporters against one another at a time we should be looking forwards as a group in renewed hope and getting behind the current incumbent and squad.
 
festa5 said:
I hope those so determined to give Warnock all the credit for "assembling" this side are all as keen to give Woodgate the same credit?

After all he definitely had to clear out more deadwood, had less to spend and I believe more than half of what most would now consider our best 11 were also part of Woodgate's team?

Personally I think it's nonsense Warnock has done anything like the job Mowbray did in terms of laying foundations. Let's see how many of his signings are seen as key players when we get promoted under Wilder. I suspect it'll only be Crooks.
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Gibson - Fry
Ayala - Dijksteel
Friend - McNair
Leadbitter - Crooks
Clayton* - Tavernier
Adomah -Jones
Reach - Bola

*I know
 
coluka said:
As you know I don’t believe any of our past managers are responsible for deserving the credit for the majority of signings, they play a part in the process just like several others do and none of them had the casting vote over the owner imho, Woodgate deserves little credit probably the least of anyone since Mogga was appointed, signings and sales of players have gone on that were not necessarily FULLY supported by the head coach or manager. Some confirmed straight from the mouths of the players themselves.

I think, nay, I know that Neil did his fair share of sending certain players packing, building trust and motivation in those that remained and were brought in whether he approved or not. He never once directly or indirectly tried to hold Boro back or to my personal knowledge, not to act in the clubs best interests, but yes he clearly made mistakes like any other manager.

He absolutely wanted success, but the club wanted to move in a direction differently, which i have no issue with, nor did he, and i am sure the current direction is fully justified even if Neil feels somewhat aggrieved as to how things materialised. The issue for me and I think perhaps for Neil was in giving him the go ahead for this season and not appointing Wilder in the summer of 2021. I do wonder if that is in part due to Wilder himself not being ready to commit to Boro then as he now has (maybe, just maybe, he had other irons in his fire at that juncture that never developed). Nevertheless, he is here now, we should all be pleased.

There is nothing to be gained by a bit of Warnock bashing as far as I can see it just pits supporters against one another at a time we should be looking forwards as a group in renewed hope and getting behind the current incumbent and squad.
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I think we've long since agreed to disagree on some of that 😁

But re: giving Warnock this year. I don't think it was a terrible decision at the time. NW himself was very confident he could get us up. Given his experience, I don't blame Gibson for believing him. I don't doubt Warnock genuinely believed it either.

There are no guarantees in football though. In hindsight it was an error. I think it often is when a manager announces they're leaving. It just makes things harder when everyone knows they won't be around after the season is done.
 
L
BoroMart said:
Warnocks signings:
- Grant Hall - permacrock and not good enough, waste of big wage that we will need to get rid of in the summer
- Sam Morsy - in then out, was ok, for a hoofball bypass the midfield side
- Chuba Akpom! How are we gonna get him off our books?
- Watmore - good squad player
- Fisher - another crock
- Lumley - will be on good wages, but isn't more than a reserve quality
- Ameobi - hasn't kicked a ball and possibly never will for us
- Uche - not championship quality
- Peltier - decent squad player, but a short term solution
- Crooks - his gem signing
- Payero - not his signing and barely played him
- Daniels - not good enough
- Olusanya - National LEegue quality

So what are these foundations that Warnock has laid again? a debut, but more misses than hits in that lol
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‘How much? ‘Warnock signings’ - Payero - not his signing’

that was best bit!

how much did did he spend on his signings? how much did he save the club by coaching players back into the side?

.
 
Easy game management - sometimes. And also why I don’t really buy into the idea that players need a year to settle or managers need two transfer windows.

If you’re good, you have an impact straightaway.

Wilder’s done that… and to be fair so did Pulis and Warnock when they first took over.

Seeing it again with Conte in the PL now, instant turnaround with a bit of organisation, and will always think of Bruno Fernandes walking into the United team and immediately being one of the best players in the league.
 
Rofesleg said:
M

Grateful that he kept us up, but minor miracle? Come on, that's ridiculous.
He beat 3 equally poor teams plus a decent Millwall.
Lost 4 games including against rock bottom Hull.
Solid but not miraculous.
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It was more than solid and less than a minor miracle.
We were in a bit of a state as a group with little confidence and no system therefore only a limited group of experienced managers would’ve been able to come in and pick up the players and organize them whilst instilling some confidence and warnock was perfect for that
So I thank him
(If any boro fan disagrees with that basic analysis then bless ya) 😃

warnock was though holding us back and even I couldn’t see it before he was ‘moved on’
I had become blinkered by his charismatic ways and started to believe his rhetoric about not having the funds to influence a promotion attempt
Well done Gibbo
As soon as the decision was made I understood it was for the good of the club and team
Giving funds to someone who will leave in 6 months was to risky
 
jonny_greenings_sock said:
Easy game management - sometimes. And also why I don’t really buy into the idea that players need a year to settle or managers need two transfer windows.

If you’re good, you have an impact straightaway.

Wilder’s done that… and to be fair so did Pulis and Warnock when they first took over.

Seeing it again with Conte in the PL now, instant turnaround with a bit of organisation, and will always think of Bruno Fernandes walking into the United team and immediately being one of the best players in the league.
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Jonny
I do think the instant impact is about having a system and an ability as a manager to impart that system onto the players through your strength of personality and self confidence
Self confidence (not arrogance) is massive as a manager because players intuitively sense it in the first 0-12 games and if a manager genuinely has a self confidence and a system that the players understand with that self confidence to communicate it and offer wise counsel on all matters to do with football and managing your self and life then the recipe for success is there
(I think wilder has this or has all these qualities within the back room team he has around him)
That’s why I’m excited for the future 😃
 
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