When will we stop asking people who are asymptomatic or have only mild symptoms to isolate?

[Corcaigh_the_Cat]

This is not just the NHS but the whole care sector.
Its not just about covid - its about the whole service.
The failure of one service effects all others - both Primary and Secondary Care.
Brexit slashed staffing in the care sector at a stroke.
As a nation, we lost doctors, specialists, Consultants, experienced Senior Medical Practitioners, Qualified Nurses and Care Staff - in both community and Residential settings.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/about-us
View attachment 30652

Brexit and the end of the transition period | The King's Fund

On Christmas Eve 2020 a new EU-UK trade and co-operation deal was agreed. Jonathon Holmes looks at what the new deal means for the health and care system.

www.kingsfund.org.uk

Here is an extract from a report published by The Kings Fund. Published January 2021:

Brexit and the end of the transition period: what does it mean for the health and care system? ​

Workforce and immigration​

Immigration: the health and care system’s international workforce​

Leaving the EU’s single market means that there will no longer be free movement of labour between the UK and European Economic Area (EEA) countries........[click on link above to read whole report

Implications
The NHS and the social care sector would not be able to function without their international workforce.

In the short term, the current workforce shortfall in the NHS is so severe that it will require at least 5,000 more nurses a year to be recruited from overseas while measures to increase domestic training capacity take effect.

The government recognises that international recruitment is key to increasing NHS staff headcount and has committed to recruiting an additional 12,000 nurses from overseas by 2024/25.

This commitment will require an immigration policy that is supportive of ethical international recruitment if it is to be realised. Ending the free movement of labour from the EEA to the UK has placed a new barrier to recruiting staff from those nations, however, it will not materially change or create new barriers to recruiting staff from non-EEA nations from where a growing number of international staff in health care services are arriving (General Medical Council 2020; Nursing and Midwifery Council 2020).

It is too early to say if the new Health and Care Worker Visa alongside the Immigration Health Surcharge exemption will maintain the UK’s status as an attractive place to come to work for non-British nationals now the transition period has ended. The restrictions of movement necessitated by the Covid-19 pandemic have halted and undermined efforts to increase international recruitment to the NHS.

In the social care sector, the new arrangements will create a greater challenge as care workers are not eligible for a Health and Care Worker Visa.

The advice, given by the Migration Advisory Committee and accepted by government, is that workforce shortages in social care are driven by market forces, such as rates of pay, and would not be resolved by increased international recruitment.

However, with no immediate solution to the market or funding issues in social care, the current arrangements are likely to mean that social care providers will struggle to recruit new overseas staff in 2021, adding to existing staff shortages and compounding the pressure on the social care workforce.

..........................​

Anyone interested in the issue of staffing healthcare and providing human resources to service an effective pro-active National Healthcare Serivce in Primary and Secondary Care may find the following links and articles useful: ​

Disabled people struggling to hire carers after Brexit

Ministers refuse to ease immigration restrictions as campaigners warn of ‘social care time bomb’

www.theguardian.com

The impact of Brexit on the care sector | Predicting care staff shortages | Guardian Carers

The UK care sector relies on EU nationals, but with the UK now out of the EU, how will the sector cope? According to 2019/20 figures, 113,000 jobs were filled by EU nationals which amounts to 7% of the overall 1.54 million jobs.

guardiancarers.co.uk

What Does Brexit Mean to Carers? | Carer's Voice | Independent Living

<p>Laura Graham, who combines being a full-time carer for her mother with working as an independent researcher/writer/consultant in the fields of addiction recovery, mental health and carers’ issues, explains some of the fears affecting carers following the vote to leave the EU. Brexit looms and...

www.independentliving.co.uk

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

'So it begins': Care worker living in UK for 44 years loses job due to Brexit rules

A CARE worker who came to the UK when she was an 11-month-old baby has lost her job as a consequence of Brexit rule changes.

www.thenational.scot

Idiot nation, I'm afraid.

 

[Mwelolo]

This is not just the NHS but the whole care sector.
Its not just about covid - its about the whole service.
The failure of one service effects all others - both Primary and Secondary Care.
Brexit slashed staffing in the care sector at a stroke.
As a nation, we lost doctors, specialists, Consultants, experienced Senior Medical Practitioners, Qualified Nurses and Care Staff - in both community and Residential settings.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/about-us
View attachment 30652

Brexit and the end of the transition period | The King's Fund

On Christmas Eve 2020 a new EU-UK trade and co-operation deal was agreed. Jonathon Holmes looks at what the new deal means for the health and care system.

www.kingsfund.org.uk

Here is an extract from a report published by The Kings Fund. Published January 2021:

Brexit and the end of the transition period: what does it mean for the health and care system? ​

Workforce and immigration​

Immigration: the health and care system’s international workforce​

Leaving the EU’s single market means that there will no longer be free movement of labour between the UK and European Economic Area (EEA) countries........[click on link above to read whole report

Implications
The NHS and the social care sector would not be able to function without their international workforce.

In the short term, the current workforce shortfall in the NHS is so severe that it will require at least 5,000 more nurses a year to be recruited from overseas while measures to increase domestic training capacity take effect.

The government recognises that international recruitment is key to increasing NHS staff headcount and has committed to recruiting an additional 12,000 nurses from overseas by 2024/25.

This commitment will require an immigration policy that is supportive of ethical international recruitment if it is to be realised. Ending the free movement of labour from the EEA to the UK has placed a new barrier to recruiting staff from those nations, however, it will not materially change or create new barriers to recruiting staff from non-EEA nations from where a growing number of international staff in health care services are arriving (General Medical Council 2020; Nursing and Midwifery Council 2020).

It is too early to say if the new Health and Care Worker Visa alongside the Immigration Health Surcharge exemption will maintain the UK’s status as an attractive place to come to work for non-British nationals now the transition period has ended. The restrictions of movement necessitated by the Covid-19 pandemic have halted and undermined efforts to increase international recruitment to the NHS.

In the social care sector, the new arrangements will create a greater challenge as care workers are not eligible for a Health and Care Worker Visa.

The advice, given by the Migration Advisory Committee and accepted by government, is that workforce shortages in social care are driven by market forces, such as rates of pay, and would not be resolved by increased international recruitment.

However, with no immediate solution to the market or funding issues in social care, the current arrangements are likely to mean that social care providers will struggle to recruit new overseas staff in 2021, adding to existing staff shortages and compounding the pressure on the social care workforce.

..........................​

Anyone interested in the issue of staffing healthcare and providing human resources to service an effective pro-active National Healthcare Serivce in Primary and Secondary Care may find the following links and articles useful: ​

Disabled people struggling to hire carers after Brexit

Ministers refuse to ease immigration restrictions as campaigners warn of ‘social care time bomb’

www.theguardian.com

The impact of Brexit on the care sector | Predicting care staff shortages | Guardian Carers

The UK care sector relies on EU nationals, but with the UK now out of the EU, how will the sector cope? According to 2019/20 figures, 113,000 jobs were filled by EU nationals which amounts to 7% of the overall 1.54 million jobs.

guardiancarers.co.uk

What Does Brexit Mean to Carers? | Carer's Voice | Independent Living

<p>Laura Graham, who combines being a full-time carer for her mother with working as an independent researcher/writer/consultant in the fields of addiction recovery, mental health and carers’ issues, explains some of the fears affecting carers following the vote to leave the EU. Brexit looms and...

www.independentliving.co.uk

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

'So it begins': Care worker living in UK for 44 years loses job due to Brexit rules

A CARE worker who came to the UK when she was an 11-month-old baby has lost her job as a consequence of Brexit rule changes.

www.thenational.scot

I agree Brexit will have far, far more impact on the NHS workforce than removing staff who refuse to protect themselves and their patients from front line services.

The impact of the latter will be minimal.

 

[r00fie1]

I agree Brexit will have far, far more impact on the NHS workforce than removing staff who refuse to protect themselves and their patients from front line services.

The impact of the latter will be minimal.

Thats not the point.

You talk about staffing issues and how the NHS should be used to being stretched.
Its not about the future and what you say bears no relevance to the actual situation now. Today.
Brexit has already cleared the shelf o f the staff we had from the EU in our care homes and our hospitals.
Its already left patients without care or support.

Its already left surgeries without General Practitioners and Hospitals without Clinical Specialists and Consultants.
Wards are already closed and services in Secondary and Primary Care have been terminated and cut to the bone.

The "impact" of those who wont have the vaccine isnt "minimal" - its already having significant impacts - particularly in social care:
The negative effects on public health are disproportionately higher to the numbers who refuse to get vaccinated.

40,000 staff are expected to be without the anti-covid vaccine by the time the legislation comes into place in spring:

Mandatory vaccination enforced in care homes amid mounting staff gaps and job loss warnings - Community Care

Care home staff in England who are not fully Covid-19 vaccinated will not be able to work in homes from today amid mounting staff shortages across the sector and warnings of many more job losses from the policy and its extension next year to home care.

www.communitycare.co.uk

In Scotland alone, 17,000 posts in care homes remain unfilled due to absence of workers from the EU and a shortage of care staff in UK. Minimum wage rates, absence of any career pathway, zero hours contracts and anti-social hours, burn out and carers quitting the industry for other jobs, means elderly and vulnerable people are at risk of potential death, through non existent care or support.
Its as straight-forward as that.

If only there was time to walk the [vaccine refusers] brainless selfish idiots, through the mortuaries and in the community - to see the complete break-down of care and support for the most vulnerable, poorest and disabled people in the 6th richest country in the world. But they wont think - because they dont know how to.

They apportion "blame" rather than take responsibility.
They talk about "freedom" but dont care about others "freedom" to live, only to die.

How do you propose we resolve these major structural issues today, so that you or me can get a GP appointment, and receive the healthcare treatment we expect for ourselves, our children, our families, neighbours and friends?

 

[r00fie1]

I said you’re advised to.

I never said you followed the advice

Which is a good case in point

 

[Randy]

Thats not the point.

You talk about staffing issues and how the NHS should be used to being stretched.
Its not about the future and what you say bears no relevance to the actual situation now. Today.
Brexit has already cleared the shelf o f the staff we had from the EU in our care homes and our hospitals.
Its already left patients without care or support.

Its already left surgeries without General Practitioners and Hospitals without Clinical Specialists and Consultants.
Wards are already closed and services in Secondary and Primary Care have been terminated and cut to the bone.

The "impact" of those who wont have the vaccine isnt "minimal" - its already having significant impacts - particularly in social care:
The negative effects on public health are disproportionately higher to the numbers who refuse to get vaccinated.

40,000 staff are expected to be without the anti-covid vaccine by the time the legislation comes into place in spring:

Mandatory vaccination enforced in care homes amid mounting staff gaps and job loss warnings - Community Care

Care home staff in England who are not fully Covid-19 vaccinated will not be able to work in homes from today amid mounting staff shortages across the sector and warnings of many more job losses from the policy and its extension next year to home care.

www.communitycare.co.uk

In Scotland alone, 17,000 posts in care homes remain unfilled due to absence of workers from the EU and a shortage of care staff in UK. Minimum wage rates, absence of any career pathway, zero hours contracts and anti-social hours, burn out and carers quitting the industry for other jobs, means elderly and vulnerable people are at risk of potential death, through non existent care or support.
Its as straight-forward as that.

If only there was time to walk the [vaccine refusers] brainless selfish idiots, through the mortuaries and in the community - to see the complete break-down of care and support for the most vulnerable, poorest and disabled people in the 6th richest country in the world. But they wont think - because they dont know how to.

They apportion "blame" rather than take responsibility.
They talk about "freedom" but dont care about others "freedom" to live, only to die.

How do you propose we resolve these major structural issues today, so that you or me can get a GP appointment, and receive the healthcare treatment we expect for ourselves, our children, our families, neighbours and friends?

We could follow the Australian's and bring in a compensation scheme for those affected by vaccine side effects. Could go some way to calming the nerves of those who won't get the vaccine for fear of said side effects.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1476926692505505795

 

[Muttley]

We could follow the Australian's and bring in a compensation scheme for those affected by vaccine side effects. Could go some way to calming the nerves of those who won't get the vaccine for fear of said side effects.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1476926692505505795

FFS Randy do you look at the source you are quoting?

I agree that the scheme (which does exist) is a good idea but the video that accompanies the Tweet you have quoted is complete Anti-Vax scare stories and lies, the figures are repudiated three replies down.

 

[Randy]

FFS Randy do you look at the source you are quoting?

I agree that the scheme (which does exist) is a good idea but the video that accompanies the Tweet you have quoted is complete Anti-Vax scare stories and lies, the figures are repudiated three replies down.

I'm aware of that. I've only paid attention to the video. The comments underneath are white noise. The video isn't anti vax at all. It's from an Australian news channel, the most watched one in Australia may I add.

I don't know why you put in brackets "which does exist".

 

[r00fie1]

To anyone who worries or uses "side effects" to justify not taking any vaccine or drug.
Read this and tell us which drug it is?
Then tell us if you`ve ever used it:

Side-effects​

General side-effects​

1. Rare or very rare​

Thrombocytopenia

2. Specific side-effects​

2.a Common or very common​

With rectal use

anorectal erythema

2.b. Rare or very rare​

With intravenous use

hypersensitivity; hypotension; leucopenia; malaise; neutropenia

With rectal use

angioedema; liver injury; severe cutaneous adverse reactions (SCARs); skin reactions

3. Frequency not known​

With intravenous use

flushing; skin reactions; tachycardia

With oral use

agranulocytosis; bronchospasm; hepatic function abnormal; rash; severe cutaneous adverse reactions (SCARs)

With rectal use

agranulocytosis; blood disorder

4. Overdose​

Liver damage and less frequently renal damage can occur following overdose.

Nausea and vomiting, the only early features of poisoning, usually settle within 24 hours. Persistence beyond this time, often associated with the onset of right subcostal pain and tenderness, usually indicates development of hepatic necrosis.

 

[r00fie1]

We could follow the Australian's and bring in a compensation scheme for those affected by vaccine side effects. Could go some way to calming the nerves of those who won't get the vaccine for fear of said side effects.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1476926692505505795

Hows about compensating the relatives of dead patients, including Doctors, Nurses and Carers who`ve died whilst caring for those infected?

 

[Randy]

To anyone who worries or uses "side effects" to justify not taking any vaccine or drug.
Read this and tell us which drug it is?
Then tell us if you`ve ever used it:

Side-effects​

General side-effects​

1. Rare or very rare​

Thrombocytopenia

2. Specific side-effects​

2.a Common or very common​

With rectal use

anorectal erythema

2.b. Rare or very rare​

With intravenous use

hypersensitivity; hypotension; leucopenia; malaise; neutropenia

With rectal use

angioedema; liver injury; severe cutaneous adverse reactions (SCARs); skin reactions

3. Frequency not known​

With intravenous use

flushing; skin reactions; tachycardia

With oral use

agranulocytosis; bronchospasm; hepatic function abnormal; rash; severe cutaneous adverse reactions (SCARs)

With rectal use

agranulocytosis; blood disorder

4. Overdose​

Liver damage and less frequently renal damage can occur following overdose.

Nausea and vomiting, the only early features of poisoning, usually settle within 24 hours. Persistence beyond this time, often associated with the onset of right subcostal pain and tenderness, usually indicates development of hepatic necrosis.

Paracetamol

 

[Randy]

Hows about compensating the relatives of dead patients, including Doctors, Nurses and Carers who`ve died whilst caring for those infected?

We should also be compensating families who've lost loved ones due to delayed or cancelled cancer treatments.

 

[Adi_Dem]

The lack of understanding of this virus, data and statistics two years into this pandemic is truly frightening. Almost as frightening as the success with which this virus and it’s impact have been played down.

In the last two weeks this virus has killed more people than flu did in 2019 and yet it is flippantly talked about still. There are still arguments being put forward that we should just ‘get on with it’.

We now are very early into a new variant which we know is more transmissible and which looks to be much worse for kids than any previous variant. Alongside that we have numerous hospitals declaring critical incidents because of extreme and unprecedented staff shortages.

Yet it’s dismissed as milder, people genuinely think we should just ‘get on with it’ and even the PMs sister today is suggesting it would be a ‘good thing’ if all the kids were exposed to it.

Blimey.

 

[dooderooni]

We've clearly given up, as a government and a population, on trying to drive infections down Adi.
Given what we do know about this virus, there is every chance that it will use the hundreds of thousands of daily infections to mutate again. All we can hope is that it won't mutate to be more deadly or even combine the lethality of Delta with the transmissibility of Omicron.
Yes, it's unlikely I know, but we should know that we should expect the unexpected from this pandemic.

 

[r00fie1]

Paracetamol

Paracetamol | Drugs | BNF content published by NICE

View paracetamol information, including dose, uses, side-effects, renal impairment, pregnancy, breast feeding and directions for administration.

bnf.nice.org.uk

For those who are interested in "side-effects" [of any drug you care to mention], The British National Formulary has a full product description with all known effects - for your perusal. It is a live resource used by Qualified Clinical Practitioners and Allied Healthcare Professionals:

Drugs A to Z | BNF content published by NICE

Browse the complete list of drugs, alphabetically.

bnf.nice.org.uk

​

For all those who require professional contemporaneous information about COVID - follow this link:

COVID-19 | Topic | NICE

www.nice.org.uk

​

​

 

[r00fie1]

Another North East hospital suspends visiting as Covid cases rise further

ANOTHER hospital in the North East has suspended visiting due to rising number of Covid cases.

www.thenorthernecho.co.uk

​

Visiting suspended at University Hospital of North Tees​

 

[Laughing]

The lack of understanding of this virus, data and statistics two years into this pandemic is truly frightening. Almost as frightening as the success with which this virus and it’s impact have been played down.

In the last two weeks this virus has killed more people than flu did in 2019 and yet it is flippantly talked about still. There are still arguments being put forward that we should just ‘get on with it’.

We now are very early into a new variant which we know is more transmissible and which looks to be much worse for kids than any previous variant. Alongside that we have numerous hospitals declaring critical incidents because of extreme and unprecedented staff shortages.

Yet it’s dismissed as milder, people genuinely think we should just ‘get on with it’ and even the PMs sister today is suggesting it would be a ‘good thing’ if all the kids were exposed to it.

Blimey.

Adi the contradictions in your post don't help.

You start by saying people don't understand the statistics then say it has killed more people in the last 2 weeks than flu did in 2019. Whilst true it isn't a good comparison. If you look at 2020 flu numbers and people who died with flu rather than from. You see 2.5k deaths per week

You are ignoring 6 independent studies that explain why the omicron variant is less deadly. They all found the same results and you haven't alluded to any of them.

You also say omicron is effecting children more than delta yet dismiss other studies with a line that we are still learning about a new variant. Which is it? We still learning our is it more deadly to children.

It doesn't mean you are wrong, it does mean that your post loses a lot of validity whilst criticising some for not understanding then littering your post with poor evidence.

 

[Adi_Dem]

Adi the contradictions in your post don't help.

There are no contradictions.

You start by saying people don't understand the statistics then say it has killed more people in the last 2 weeks than flu did in 2019. Whilst true it isn't a good comparison. If you look at 2020 flu numbers and people who died with flu rather than from. You see 2.5k deaths per week

I made a general point that people still don't understand statistics (that is self evident from the thread). As a separate point (as is clear in the post given the way it is framed i.e. a new paragraph after the contextual sentence "Almost as frightening as the success with which this virus and it’s impact have been played down.") I argue that people aren't taking this disease seriously any more despite it taking more lives in two weeks than flu did throughout 2019 (a statistic you agree with and a perfectly reasonable comparison for the particular point being made - see below).

For some reason you don't think it's a good comparison though (despite it being accurate and making precisely the point I wanted to make) and seek to change the parameter to 'with' rather than 'from' and change the year from 2019 to 2020 (2019 being the last normal/pre-lockdown year & there being bespoke data available hence it being an excellent comparator).

You're also (by necessity with 2020 given the absence of bespoke data) conflating the stats for flu with those for pneumonia because bespoke analysis for 2020 mortality data, i.e. breakdown by flu only is not yet available hence the reason for using 2019 as a much more accurate comparator for the point I was making.

But even when you do conflate the two diseases you still get a stark picture which underlines the point I was clearly making in terms of it being wrong to downplay the severity of the disease:

• Deaths involving Influenza and Pneumonia (underlying or secondary cause): 127,575
• Deaths due to Influenza and Pneumonia (underlying cause): 21,614
• Deaths involving COVID-19 (underlying or secondary cause): 102,554
• Deaths due to COVID-19 (underlying cause): 92,913

You are ignoring 6 independent studies that explain why the omicron variant is less deadly. They all found the same results and you haven't alluded to any of them.

I am not ignoring anything. I am simply repeating what the medical and scientific community is repeatedly telling us i.e. that despite those studies it is still too soon to draw any definitive conclusions about this variant other than it's increased transmissibilty which seems to be generally accepted. And actually it's a red herring. Less deadly but as a percentage of a much higher number (transmissibility) = still a significant problem not to be downplayed, which is very clearly the only point my post was making.

You also say omicron is effecting children more than delta yet dismiss other studies with a line that we are still learning about a new variant. Which is it? We still learning our is it more deadly to children.

Read my post again. I said 'looks to be' i.e. we don't know for sure yet. Again, nothing contradictory. Simply pointing out that being blase about this variant or downplaying it as some in this thread seekt to do based on early data is a massive risk when we don't actually know yet what the outcomes might be yet. Again, I have not dismissed (or even referred to) any studies. That wasn't the point of the post. It was simply to say that we don't know enough yet to be blase and that there are some pointers that suggest it is more damaging to kids so let's be a bit careful.

It doesn't mean you are wrong, it does mean that your post loses a lot of validity whilst criticising some for not understanding then littering your post with poor evidence.

As is now evident, there is nothing contradictory or invalid about what I posted. And I am not wrong either. There is nothing poor about any of the evidence provided. In fact the only statistic I did provide you confirm is accurate (so hardly littering with poor evidence). The only reason for using the stat was to demonstrate the folly in not taking this variant or the disease more generally seriously, a point well made and well supported by either the 2019 or the less sophisticated 2020 stats you prefer.

So nah, having reviewed the post I am more than happy to stand by it.

 

[Laughing]

There are no contradictions.



I made a general point that people still don't understand statistics (that is self evident from the thread). As a separate point (as is clear in the post given the way it is framed i.e. a new paragraph after the contextual sentence "Almost as frightening as the success with which this virus and it’s impact have been played down.") I argue that people aren't taking this disease seriously any more despite it taking more lives in two weeks than flu did throughout 2019 (a statistic you agree with and a perfectly reasonable comparison for the particular point being made - see below).

For some reason you don't think it's a good comparison though (despite it being accurate and making precisely the point I wanted to make) and seek to change the parameter to 'with' rather than 'from' and change the year from 2019 to 2020 (2019 being the last normal/pre-lockdown year & there being bespoke data available hence it being an excellent comparator).

You're also (by necessity with 2020 given the absence of bespoke data) conflating the stats for flu with those for pneumonia because bespoke analysis for 2020 mortality data, i.e. breakdown by flu only is not yet available hence the reason for using 2019 as a much more accurate comparator for the point I was making.

But even when you do conflate the two diseases you still get a stark picture which underlines the point I was clearly making in terms of it being wrong to downplay the severity of the disease:

• Deaths involving Influenza and Pneumonia (underlying or secondary cause): 127,575
• Deaths due to Influenza and Pneumonia (underlying cause): 21,614
• Deaths involving COVID-19 (underlying or secondary cause): 102,554
• Deaths due to COVID-19 (underlying cause): 92,913

I am not ignoring anything. I am simply repeating what the medical and scientific community is repeatedly telling us i.e. that despite those studies it is still too soon to draw any definitive conclusions about this variant other than it's increased transmissibilty which seems to be generally accepted. And actually it's a red herring. Less deadly but as a percentage of a much higher number (transmissibility) = still a significant problem not to be downplayed, which is very clearly the only point my post was making.



Read my post again. I said 'looks to be' i.e. we don't know for sure yet. Again, nothing contradictory. Simply pointing out that being blase about this variant or downplaying it as some in this thread seekt to do based on early data is a massive risk when we don't actually know yet what the outcomes might be yet. Again, I have not dismissed (or even referred to) any studies. That wasn't the point of the post. It was simply to say that we don't know enough yet to be blase and that there are some pointers that suggest it is more damaging to kids so let's be a bit careful.



As is now evident, there is nothing contradictory or invalid about what I posted. And I am not wrong either. There is nothing poor about any of the evidence provided. In fact the only statistic I did provide you confirm is accurate (so hardly littering with poor evidence). The only reason for using the stat was to demonstrate the folly in not taking this variant or the disease more generally seriously, a point well made and well supported by either the 2019 or the less sophisticated 2020 stats you prefer.

So nah, having reviewed the post I am more than happy to stand by it.

Your second post is much better, it has context, your first post, whether you stand by it or not is misleading and suffers from the same issue you are accusing others of.

 

[Adi_Dem]

Your second post is much better, it has context, your first post, whether you stand by it or not is misleading and suffers from the same issue you are accusing others of.

It very clearly doesn’t, as you no doubt now know. Only those that are hard of thinking or those being deliberately obtuse would be misled by it. All the second post does is rebut your inaccurate reading of the first!

I am very glad to have met your editorial standards though.

 

[Laughing]

It very clearly doesn’t, as you no doubt now know. Only those that are hard of thinking or those being deliberately obtuse would be misled by it.

I am very glad to have met your editorial standards though.

Oh stop it Adi. I could equally and accurately post a headline grabber. Twice as many people died with flu last week in 2020 than covid in the same week in 2021.

It's statistically accurate but misleading in the conclusions you might draw from it.

I don't really care about your editorial standards, that's for you, not me.