BlindBoyGrunt
Well-known member
I believe he was referring more to those within the party who were actively acting to lose two elections.
Labour Party exposee
- Thread starter kuepper
- Start date
InglebyUTB
Well-known member
These people should be nowhere near power.
Scrote
Well-known member
If I was wrong then we'd have had a Corbyn led Government in 2019.
We'd have had a Corbyn led government in 2017.
We would have had a Miliband led government in 2015.
When you say 99.9% of people aren't activists I'm inclined to agree (although I'd expect the number of activists is a tad higher). However, that misses the point I was making. If 'most' people don't care about politics until it affects them directly then they 'deserve' to suffer in the same way that millions of others were made to suffer due to their utter lack of care.
I'd rather no-one suffered due to bad (in my view) political decisions. I'm not going to be bullied, cajoled or gas-lit into voting for a party that I think will make more bad political decisions based on their past record e.g. this:
Find this naive in the extreme Jam. Of course there's a better than even chance a Labour government will line the pockets of the richest at everyone elses expense. It's exactly what the last Labour government did and it's exactly what Starmer keeps saying he'll do.
Nobby_Barnes
Well-known member
Well swept under the carpet
HolgateCorner
Well-known member
Sorry if I misunderstood your post but I still don’t think I follow what you are saying.
Are you saying that if the general public did not vote Labour 2015, 2017 and 2019 then they get what is coming and you have no sympathy?
Scrote
Well-known member
It's not so much a lack of sympathy as a rejection of the argument that I'm going to be in some way to blame if I choose not to vote for more of the same, just with better marketing.
The general public (non-activists) had at least three opportunities to prevent the current mess and chose not to, because the "fair and orderly" they wanted only applied to themselves. They didn't want "fair and orderly" for everyone.
The more extreme the current Tory pillage & plunder gets, the more extreme the pendulum swing needs to be to get anything approaching a reset.
As an aside but hopefully to give some perspective, I went along to the first big march against Brexit through London. When I eventually got back to Redcar I found out that I'd been one of millions protesting against Corbyn and backing Change UK and the Centrist wet-dream. I was there to protest against Brexit. I was used as an unwilling pawn in the attempted coups against Corbyn. I won't make the same mistake again.
A vote, from me, for Starmer's Labour, will be taken as explicit support for the current Labour hierarchy. There will be no room for 'get the Tories out' nuance after the fact.
If you want my vote, offer me something to vote for. Not just something to vote against.
HolgateCorner
Well-known member
Fair comment, I think I understand now.
We all only have one vote though and to win an election Labour need to gather in a broad cross section of the population, even more now with the fascist SNP somehow hoovering up votes in Scotland.
I think you are into it far more deeply than me, I voted for Milliband, Corbyn (twice) and I will vote for Starmer, I’ve not had any problem supporting any Labour leader but other than what I sometimes read on here I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes.
BlindBoyGrunt
Well-known member
I must say, after watching the second episode of this documentary, that anyone watching with an open mind must surely come away questioning their intention to vote for this Labour party. Even if they are not convinced, the seeds of doubt must be propagating.
MolteniArcore
Well-known member
Thankfully on threads like these, of which there have been many, it's only a few voices on here who wouldn't vote Labour to get the Tories out.
They have their principles, fair enough. I still can't understand though how the left would rather the right in power to do further damage to the country just so a centre left led party don't get in. Or the notion that as the damage is already done there is no point changing anything unless it's their man - not really in keeping with Socialism is it? More like 'I'm alright Jack'.
They say the far left is as bad as the far right - threads like this just show that this is likely true. Their ideologies are more important than their fellow citizens.
They have their principles, fair enough. I still can't understand though how the left would rather the right in power to do further damage to the country just so a centre left led party don't get in. Or the notion that as the damage is already done there is no point changing anything unless it's their man - not really in keeping with Socialism is it? More like 'I'm alright Jack'.
They say the far left is as bad as the far right - threads like this just show that this is likely true. Their ideologies are more important than their fellow citizens.
BlindBoyGrunt
Well-known member
And what strong words do you have for the MPs and party executives who weaponised anti-Semitism and sabotaged two general elections?
I won't be voting Labour because the party is a corrupt racist cesspit that backs Israel in everything it does whilst suspending or expelling left wing Jews who speak up for Palestinians
I'm comfortable with my stance; it wasn't us that inflicted the country with 5 or 10 more years of Tory rule, it was them. If I was still a party member I would be regarded as an undesirable, but even as they kicked me out the door they would be begging for reassurance that I would lend them my vote.
Politics in this country needs resetting and voting Labour won't achieve that.
MolteniArcore
Well-known member
It's perfectly simple - Labour aren't centre left now. They're right wing. Really right wing.
They won't reverse the tories income tax changes, they wouldn't vote for higher corporation tax when they had the chance last year, they're against nationalisation of anything, they'll carry on with NHS privatisation, they're anti-democracy for Scotland, they're racist towards black, asian and RGT folk...
MPs get sacked from the front bench if they support any trade unions industrial action or support a higher minimum wage. The party abstains on spy cops infiltrating trade unions. No electoral reform, no rejoining the EU.
You can't just say centre left and ipso facto that's where they are. They do actually have to come up with some left wing policies to position themselves there. And it'd have to be something big now because they've gone so far down this rabbit hole of trying to make everything they appeal to tories that now they're actually just pretty flipping tory themselves.
You can't just say centre left and ipso facto that's where they are. They do actually have to come up with some left wing policies to position themselves there. And it'd have to be something big now because they've gone so far down this rabbit hole of trying to make everything they appeal to tories that now they're actually just pretty flipping tory themselves.
MolteniArcore
Well-known member
You still haven't answered the question.
But thinking about it I have just answered it myself: When you are far left everything is far right to you. And you must be very far left as you can't see that many who are centre left aren't far right. But as you are far left and can't see any party that represents your views you can't vote for what you consider far right.
This inability to see anything that doesn't align with your views as a far right stance makes debate impossible. This is pretty well evident when you look back over the countless threads where similar discussions have occurred.
It is your right to have your opinions and I think I finally understand them. As such no further discussion from me is needed.
BlindBoyGrunt
Well-known member
And you haven't the question of what strong words you have for the conduct of the party since 2015 so I take that to mean none. Do you really believe that distancing oneself from such nefarious deeds is worse than instigating them?You still haven't answered the question.
But thinking about it I have just answered it myself: When you are far left everything is far right to you. And you must be very far left as you can't see that many who are centre left aren't far right. But as you are far left and can't see any party that represents your views you can't vote for what you consider far right.
This inability to see anything that doesn't align with your views as a far right stance makes debate impossible. This is pretty well evident when you look back over the countless threads where similar discussions have occurred.
It is your right to have your opinions and I think I finally understand them. As such no further discussion from me is needed.
Brian Marwood
Well-known member
Baldrick, where did you put the dictionary?
You still haven't answered the question.
But thinking about it I have just answered it myself: When you are far left everything is far right to you. And you must be very far left as you can't see that many who are centre left aren't far right. But as you are far left and can't see any party that represents your views you can't vote for what you consider far right.
This inability to see anything that doesn't align with your views as a far right stance makes debate impossible. This is pretty well evident when you look back over the countless threads where similar discussions have occurred.
It is your right to have your opinions and I think I finally understand them. As such no further discussion from me is needed.
Willing to be convinced Molteni. What are Starmer's Labours "centre left" credentials? I've just listed specific policy positions he's gone for over the last 2 years that to me are right wing. What can you say he'd do in government that's left wing?
Quick scan of my two posts and I think I've listed about 11 right wing things. So you'll probably need more than that to justify the party as being centre left on the spectrum.
Jedi boro
Well-known member
But they are not though are they.
Angela eagle and Angela Reyna and Lisa nandy
Really right wing
Really ?????