Labour Party exposee

[SuperStu]

I still can't understand though how the left would rather the right in power to do further damage to the country just so a centre left led party don't get in.

It's perfectly simple - Labour aren't centre left now. They're right wing. Really right wing.

They won't reverse the tories income tax changes, they wouldn't vote for higher corporation tax when they had the chance last year, they're against nationalisation of anything, they'll carry on with NHS privatisation, they're anti-democracy for Scotland, they're racist towards black, asian and RGT folk...

 

[SuperStu]

MPs get sacked from the front bench if they support any trade unions industrial action or support a higher minimum wage. The party abstains on spy cops infiltrating trade unions. No electoral reform, no rejoining the EU.

You can't just say centre left and ipso facto that's where they are. They do actually have to come up with some left wing policies to position themselves there. And it'd have to be something big now because they've gone so far down this rabbit hole of trying to make everything they appeal to tories that now they're actually just pretty flipping tory themselves.

 

[MolteniArcore]

It's perfectly simple - Labour aren't centre left now. They're right wing. Really right wing.

They won't reverse the tories income tax changes, they wouldn't vote for higher corporation tax when they had the chance last year, they're against nationalisation of anything, they'll carry on with NHS privatisation, they're anti-democracy for Scotland, they're racist towards black, asian and RGT folk...

You still haven't answered the question.

But thinking about it I have just answered it myself: When you are far left everything is far right to you. And you must be very far left as you can't see that many who are centre left aren't far right. But as you are far left and can't see any party that represents your views you can't vote for what you consider far right.

This inability to see anything that doesn't align with your views as a far right stance makes debate impossible. This is pretty well evident when you look back over the countless threads where similar discussions have occurred.

It is your right to have your opinions and I think I finally understand them. As such no further discussion from me is needed.

 

[BlindBoyGrunt]

You still haven't answered the question.

But thinking about it I have just answered it myself: When you are far left everything is far right to you. And you must be very far left as you can't see that many who are centre left aren't far right. But as you are far left and can't see any party that represents your views you can't vote for what you consider far right.

This inability to see anything that doesn't align with your views as a far right stance makes debate impossible. This is pretty well evident when you look back over the countless threads where similar discussions have occurred.

It is your right to have your opinions and I think I finally understand them. As such no further discussion from me is needed.

And you haven't the question of what strong words you have for the conduct of the party since 2015 so I take that to mean none. Do you really believe that distancing oneself from such nefarious deeds is worse than instigating them?

 

[Brian Marwood]

In other words, it would behoove you to rein in your ultracrepidarian perniciuos fatuousness.

Baldrick, where did you put the dictionary?

 

[SuperStu]

You still haven't answered the question.

But thinking about it I have just answered it myself: When you are far left everything is far right to you. And you must be very far left as you can't see that many who are centre left aren't far right. But as you are far left and can't see any party that represents your views you can't vote for what you consider far right.

This inability to see anything that doesn't align with your views as a far right stance makes debate impossible. This is pretty well evident when you look back over the countless threads where similar discussions have occurred.

It is your right to have your opinions and I think I finally understand them. As such no further discussion from me is needed.

Willing to be convinced Molteni. What are Starmer's Labours "centre left" credentials? I've just listed specific policy positions he's gone for over the last 2 years that to me are right wing. What can you say he'd do in government that's left wing?

Quick scan of my two posts and I think I've listed about 11 right wing things. So you'll probably need more than that to justify the party as being centre left on the spectrum.

 

[Jedi boro]

Really right wing.

But they are not though are they.

Angela eagle and Angela Reyna and Lisa nandy

Really right wing

Really ?????

 

[SuperStu]

But they are not though are they.

Angela eagle and Angela Reyna and Lisa nandy

Really right wing

Really ?????

Same as Molteni. You're just listing names, it's not good enough.

If you want to convince folk you're a centre left party you'll need a mixture of left wing and centrist policies. If you only have right wing policies, such as those I listed above, then you're a right wing party. Even if you do have plenty of Angela's kicking about.

I don't even know why you'd mention Angela Eagle tbf she's not remotely on the left of the party. Just a bog standard Blair era type.

 

[relfyoftheboro]

They have their principles, fair enough. I still can't understand though how the left would rather the right in power to do further damage to the country just so a centre left led party don't get in.

This is precisely what the "centre" of the Labour party have done, twice! Literally sabotaged two elections to ensure that a mild social democrat never achieves the levers of power.

Many, many socialists have held their noses in the past and voted for the centers candidate as the Tory alternative is clearly worse. Blairs repeated electoral successes are proof of that.

Labour wouldn't have achieved those wins without the Left.

Its the Centre/right of the party that have proved incapable of choosing the lesser of two evils. They are the ones who foisted this **** show of a government on us because they refused to work with the Left.

Now, as the centre needs the lefts support we're expected to just toe the line? Why should we? We've been repeatedly betrayed and lied to by the party that is supposed to represent our interests? It's utter nonsense to expect loyalty from people who've been treated this way.

Fortunately for me, I live in a very safe Labour seat so I'll be spoiling my ballot at the next GE. How else am I supposed to get a message to Starmer and his gang that they do not represent my interests in the way they should?

 

[Nano]

America is an excellent example of what happens when the left party chases the party to the right. The far right party gets more extreme to appeal more to it's base and the left party goes centre right to appeal to the "moderate right". All that happens is the far right party wins because they are either in power or the opposition are implementing their policies anyway. America has no party in the centre or on the left. They have right and extreme right. That is where we are heading if we're not already there.

If Labour always have to become the Tory party to appeal to Tory voters to win then there is no point in winning.

As mentioned, this situation is no different to when Corbyn was in power and instead of backing him because he was better than the Tories the centrists sabotaged the party to get rid of him. That makes it sound like they'd far rather the Tories were in power than Labour run by the left which sounds to me like they are actually Tories.

You should never run a campaign on "at least we're not the other lot". Give people something to vote for. The Tories have dug such a big hole for themselves that this is a perfect time to move left, not right. People want a change so while that appetite is there and the votes are easily obtainable then make sure you also appeal to your own base. It makes no sense to only appeal to swing voters unless your only goal is winning and getting yourself into power rather than doing what will actually benefit people. What is going to happen is we are going ot end up with Labour being in charge and being indistinguishable from a Cameron/May Tory party.

 

[SuperStu]

Agree with all that Nano. And I'd add that just looking at the last 100 years in the UK should be enough to tell us that the tories will get back in to power at some point. Even if they lose a 2024 election you have to assume they'll be back in charge by 2029 or 2034. That being the case there's really no point in trying to make incrementalism work. You can't just say well we'll get elected as a centre right party and then from government try to inch leftwards bit by bit because Labour will be back out on their *rses again before it pays off.

 

[MolteniArcore]

Labour will renationalise railways if party wins next general election

Shadow Transport Secretary Louise Haigh told delegates at the party's annual gathering in Liverpool that power needed to be 'in the hands of the public'

www.mirror.co.uk

Surprised that @SuperStu, @BlindBoyGrunt, @relfyoftheboro, @exiledinboro, @Boro4life, @Erimus74 & @Scrote aren't pleased with this progressive left wing policy. Maybe a few more announcements like this and they might consider voting for Labour in the next GE to help rid us of this Tory government!!

It would be great for us all to get behind policies like these and make the UK a better place to live for everyone

 

[Nobby_Barnes]

Labour will renationalise railways if party wins next general election

Shadow Transport Secretary Louise Haigh told delegates at the party's annual gathering in Liverpool that power needed to be 'in the hands of the public'

www.mirror.co.uk

Surprised that @SuperStu, @BlindBoyGrunt, @relfyoftheboro, @Nobby_Barnes, @exiledinboro, @Boro4life, @Erimus74 & @Scrote aren't pleased with this progressive left wing policy. Maybe a few more announcements like this and they might consider voting for Labour in the next GE to help rid us of this Tory government!!

It would be great for us all to get behind policies like these and make the UK a better place to live for everyone

Err... I did vote labour thanks very much...
You're in the Notebook

 

[BlindBoyGrunt]

Labour will renationalise railways if party wins next general election

Shadow Transport Secretary Louise Haigh told delegates at the party's annual gathering in Liverpool that power needed to be 'in the hands of the public'

www.mirror.co.uk

Surprised that @SuperStu, @BlindBoyGrunt, @relfyoftheboro, @Nobby_Barnes, @exiledinboro, @Boro4life, @Erimus74 & @Scrote aren't pleased with this progressive left wing policy. Maybe a few more announcements like this and they might consider voting for Labour in the next GE to help rid us of this Tory government!!

It would be great for us all to get behind policies like these and make the UK a better place to live for everyone

Every contribution I have made to this thread has addressed corruption and racism and nothing has changed there. But let's not forget that Starmer has already reneged on every pledge he made in the leadership election.

 

[MolteniArcore]

Err... I did vote labour thanks very much...
You're in the Notebook

Sorry Nobby I'll edit you out of that tag!

 

[BlindBoyGrunt]

Sorry Nobby I'll edit you out of that tag!

Well so did I but it's the next election we're talking about.

 

[MolteniArcore]

Every contribution I have made to this thread has addressed corruption and racism and nothing has changed there. But let's not forget that Starmer has already reneged on every pledge he made in the leadership election.

You just can't bring yourself so say one positive thing about it, can you? And that is why debate is totally useless on threads like these. Totally the same mindset as Brexit cultists but on the other side of the political spectrum.

When I answered my question before I was spot on I think.

I'll leave it there. No point continuing with any further discussions. No point annoying each other further when the outcome will not change!

 

[SuperStu]

Great policy should be a no brainer, we pay far too much for rail travel compared to other countries.

So there's 1 left wing policy vs the 11 right wing ones I rattled off earlier. Honestly I still couldn't describe Labour as centre left but it's a step in the right direction.

However as BBGs alluded to, Starmer is habitually dishonest. He's said yes to rail nationalisation on conference weekend, ahead of his speech, and with these Labour files documentaries in the background. Will he stand by it in a few weeks/months? Hope so!

 

[exiledinboro]

@MolteniArcore last month Labour said it would nationalise the railways then said it wouldn't then said it would leave the current process in place which does on occasion nationalise the railways when a providers contract expires

And now you’re saying they’ll nationalise again

I’m not even going to comment on the flip flopping
But all the time the argument has been consistent that nationalisation is what should happen even when we were being accused of having ‘ideological aspirations’.

And I think we’ve argued Labour should have policies rather than the counter argument they don’t need policies

But that doesn’t change the fact the BBC are being accused of not meeting standards and Labour still have some of the individuals named in the programme in their ranks. Surely Labour surely if it is a lawful and decent party needs to look at all the allegations and address them rather than sweep it under the carpet

But I read Labour are going to offer to hire more NHS so

 

[relfyoftheboro]

Labour will renationalise railways if party wins next general election

Shadow Transport Secretary Louise Haigh told delegates at the party's annual gathering in Liverpool that power needed to be 'in the hands of the public'

www.mirror.co.uk

Surprised that @SuperStu, @BlindBoyGrunt, @relfyoftheboro, @exiledinboro, @Boro4life, @Erimus74 & @Scrote aren't pleased with this progressive left wing policy. Maybe a few more announcements like this and they might consider voting for Labour in the next GE to help rid us of this Tory government!!

It would be great for us all to get behind policies like these and make the UK a better place to live for everyone

You're not surprised about anything at all, as you've given hardly any of us chance to comment before calling us out? Whats that about?

As a socialist how could I be anything other than ensuthed about a policy announcement like this? It doesn't change the fact that had the wing of the party currently in charge thrown everything at winning the election in 2017 we could, feasibly, be enjoying a second term of properly progressive policies. The railways would have been nationalised and I imagine we'd be reaping the benefits already.

This is the absolute bare minimum I'd expect from the Labour party so the fact that some feel this announcement should be lauded speaks volumes.