BoroFur
Well-known member
Just at is makes no difference by abstaining?
I'm not advocating voting Green per se but why anyone would not cast their vote against the Tories is beyond me.
Westminster voting intention
- Thread starter hewielewie
- Start date
I'm not advocating voting Green per se but why anyone would not cast their vote against the Tories is beyond me.
festa5
Well-known member
As has been discussed many times on here FPTP isn't fit for purpose, the game is massively rigged.
I'd probably prefer to vote green if it counted for anything. Instead I vote for whoever has the best chance of beating the Tories. I don't care how **** labour or the lib Dems are, they're not a patch on the Tories and certainly nowhere near as bad as this particular brand. Starmer/Corbyn makes no difference to me. I just want them to do better at getting through to people.
Christ even if Jo Swinson came back and was the candidate with the best chance of beating the Tory in my constituency I'd vote for her and I can't F***ing stand her. I think she's a Tory lite imbecile who's pathetic politicking played a big part in helping Boris find a way out the deep hole he found himself in. But she'd still get my vote if it was the best chance to remove these crooks from power.
Because it's about the bigger picture and not wanting the country being run for and by a self serving, over privileged elite who believe they're above the law. They need removing from power as soon as possible. I'd rather they be replaced by someone I liked and respected, but at this point I'll take mediocrity or even "a bit ****" over the current lot any day of the week.
I get where you're both coming from. I just differ on this point I suppose:
I don't think voting Lib Dem does anything to make it more likely the tories are removed. If they end up with enough seats to choose between being in a 5 or 6 party coalition (with Labour, SNP, Plaid, SDLP, Green all involved) or to be on their own with the tories, they'll go back in to coalition with the tories. 100%.
With Labour I can understand people saying:
But the personalities involved do make a difference. As I said earlier, Starmer's ditching a left wing policy every time he goes on TV lately. Reeves is the one who went in to the 2015 election saying she's more tory than the tories. Wes Streeting just last week was talking about sacrificing cows like an absolute lunatic.
If the best case scenario is a non-tory party carrying our tory policies for 5-10 years before the actual tory tories inevitably get back in I don't see much of a point personally.
I don't think voting Lib Dem does anything to make it more likely the tories are removed. If they end up with enough seats to choose between being in a 5 or 6 party coalition (with Labour, SNP, Plaid, SDLP, Green all involved) or to be on their own with the tories, they'll go back in to coalition with the tories. 100%.
With Labour I can understand people saying:
But the personalities involved do make a difference. As I said earlier, Starmer's ditching a left wing policy every time he goes on TV lately. Reeves is the one who went in to the 2015 election saying she's more tory than the tories. Wes Streeting just last week was talking about sacrificing cows like an absolute lunatic.
If the best case scenario is a non-tory party carrying our tory policies for 5-10 years before the actual tory tories inevitably get back in I don't see much of a point personally.
festa5
Well-known member
I didn't say personalities don't make a difference, I said they don't make a difference to me personally in how I'll vote. Of course they make a difference overall though.
As for voting lib dem. Yeah maybe they'd go into coalition again, but I wouldn't be so sure after getting burned last time. The Tories have lurched even more to the right since then too. I suspect their membership would be appalled at the thought right now (although things can obviously change).
Either way in some seats labour have absolutely no chance, but Lib Dems do. Regardless of the coalition risk, it's better than a Tory winning the seat.
deganya
Well-known member
I don't believe in this lizard people nonsence. But I look at Gove and think there might be something in it
festa5
Well-known member
Bit harsh on lizardI don't believe in this lizard people nonsence. But I look at Gove and think there might be something in it
people that.
Andy_W
Well-known member
Why is he war criminal? It had support from the vast majority of the Uk public, and MP’s at the time, are they all war criminals? I went there, am I a war criminal? He unfortunately can’t see into the future. In hindsight you can criticise, but in hindsight he might have had a different view
He offered a democratic vote on it to the MP’s, all the Tories voted for it, without them it would have been a dead duck.
So, the one thing tories go after him on, they voted for anyway, in much higher percentages!
Andy_W
Well-known member
Great post, nail on the head.
For those not absolutely buckled, it is about voting for who will do the most damage against the tories, as otherwise you get the tories doing the most damage to you.
FWIW, buckled is >100k a year, not 30/40k a year. Loads of people vote Tory under 50k a year, and they get a terrible return for it.
I think the burn last time and the appalled membership are priced in now. Any Lib Dems who would be all that appalled by working with tories left years ago. What is left in that party is just tory economics + legalising cannabis. That'd be their path of least resistance rather than having to contend with devolution, environmentalism, etc.
Okay. But why?
the constituency I live in was 50% tory, 30% Lib Dem last time round. It would need a massive swing for the Lib Dems to win it. And if they went in to coalition with the tories you'd have to assume they'd just lose the seat back to them in the following election.Or, supposing they don't go in to coalition with the tories you'd have to assume that my local Lib Dem MP would want to sure up their own support within the constituency ahead of the next election. Which they'd probably do by voting/acting as tory as possible to appeal to that 50%.
So the way I see it, voting Lib Dem probably gets me either: 1) a tory MP anyway. 2) a Lib Dem MP who props up a tory government. Or 3) a Lib Dem MP who roleplays a tory MP within a (probably gridlocked) coalition.
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Unravel_Morrison
Well-known member
I don't think the Lib Dems would go back into coalition with The Tories.
If the left leaning parties are clever and work together they could easily get rid of this bunch of chancers.
If the left leaning parties are clever and work together they could easily get rid of this bunch of chancers.
Okay. But based on what?
To me it seems perfectly ordinary to guess people/organisations might well do things we've already seen them do on a regular basis.
The Lib Dems were advocating for a coalition led by one of Thatchers ministers as recently as 2019. They happily accepted Sam Gyimahs deflection and put him straight in as a Lib Dem candidate, in a Labour v Tory marginal. I just don't get where people are getting this idea that the Lib Dems are especially anti-tory party?
MolteniArcore
Well-known member
I think the burn last time and the appalled membership are priced in now. Any Lib Dems who would be all that appalled by working with tories left years ago. What is left in that party is just tory economics + legalising cannabis. That'd be their path of least resistance rather than having to contend with devolution, environmentalism, etc.
Okay. But why?
Or, supposing they don't go in to coalition with the tories you'd have to assume that my local Lib Dem MP would want to sure up their own support within the constituency ahead of the next election. Which they'd probably do by voting/acting as tory as possible to appeal to that 50%.
So the way I see it, voting Lib Dem probably gets me either: 1) a tory MP anyway. 2) a Lib Dem MP who props up a tory government. Or 3) a Lib Dem MP who roleplays a tory MP within a (probably gridlocked) coalition.
If everyone thinks like this the Tory wins and helps the party win a majority - more Tory rule - and that's the last thing we need.
Lib Dem is the lesser evil and I would say that's where the votes need to go in your seat. They won't prop up the Tories again.
It would need a 10% swing - significant, but not unimaginable. Much smaller than Chesham and Amersham, plus you wouldn't have to vote for Starmer!I think the burn last time and the appalled membership are priced in now. Any Lib Dems who would be all that appalled by working with tories left years ago. What is left in that party is just tory economics + legalising cannabis. That'd be their path of least resistance rather than having to contend with devolution, environmentalism, etc.
Okay. But why?
Or, supposing they don't go in to coalition with the tories you'd have to assume that my local Lib Dem MP would want to sure up their own support within the constituency ahead of the next election. Which they'd probably do by voting/acting as tory as possible to appeal to that 50%.
So the way I see it, voting Lib Dem probably gets me either: 1) a tory MP anyway. 2) a Lib Dem MP who props up a tory government. Or 3) a Lib Dem MP who roleplays a tory MP within a (probably gridlocked) coalition.
MolteniArcore
Well-known member
I'd suggest it was the coalition that nearly destroyed the party - if they manage to win back a good number of seats why would they risk doing that again?
They are an anti-Brexit party - isn't that enough of a difference to stop them doing it anyway?
Same questions as in my post #51. The Lib Dems will act like Lib Dems. Bonkers to expect otherwise.
MFP
Well-known member
Their widely contrasting stances on the EU and Brexit for a start. Lib Dems ultimately want to rejoin.
MolteniArcore
Well-known member
Brexit, EU, fact the last time they did it it nearly ended the party, plus the current Tory party doesn't share the Lib Dems views on distribution of wealth or the environment.
There is a pretty wide gap. The Cameron era certainly felt a lot different to this Post-Brexit Johnson sleaze party. And the next Tory leader no doubt will be just another former cabinet member who will continue this on.
Again, the Lib Dem support and representatives for whom working with the tories was not acceptable have left already. What they have now is individuals for whom working with the tories is acceptable.
Firstly, the Lib Dems had the chance to block Brexit in 2019. They were so put off by the idea of having a left wing Labour leader as PM (even in a short term government that only enacts the Brexit policy the Lib Dems wanted) that they instead went for tory government and hard brexit. So it's not such a deal breaker for them really.
If the majority that a Labour+everyone coalition would have is smaller than the number of SCG MPs I can see this really putting the Lib Dems off. They won't want to risk being held to ransom by anyone remotely left wing.
Secondly, the tories will do anything to keep power. They'll maybe get rid of Boris before the next election. If not, and if they lose enough seats that they're trying to negotiate a coalition with the Lib Dems, they'll definitely change leader then. Don't be surprised if a new non-Boris leader is happy to negotiate something like EFTA membership as the price of keeping themselves in number 10.
Unravel_Morrison
Well-known member
The Lib Dems have gone into coalition once; they would do so again. Why not with Labour?
Unravel_Morrison
Well-known member
The biggest difference between 2010 and now is what has happened to the Tory Party. They're more akin to what was UKIP previously. I don't see anyone going into coalition with them.