What the British Public has noticed re consequences of Brexit

Redwurzel

Well-known member
Not just nations. There are competing interests which cross borders and are actually more important than national self interest, such as business, workers and consumers interests, or environmental ones. In truth, national interests largely boil down to the blend of those broader competing interests within a nations culture anyway. Depending on your personal politics it is therefore easy to find things to complain about regarding the EU. Those on the right can find examples where they dislike some of the constraints on business, those on the left that it could offer more protection for workers etc. The EU does a pretty good job of balancing all these things and the various national interests. And it is an evolving institution.

It does tend to be slow. What it does is consult widely, deliberate carefully, balance competing interests, engage experts and technocrats and generally come to pretty good technical and legislative solutions to the everyday issues in the end. That is because it realises that process is important. If you get the decision making process right then it only leaves the final value judgement for a mistake to creep in. If you don't get the process right, your potential for error is significantly greater. Getting the process right, means being thorough, which is slow. Speeding things up often means cutting corners on the process, so it can mean a wrong response implemented quickly. That might be worse than no response. Process is baked in to the EU. It has to be. All the competing nations and lobbyists insisted on having some representation and voice in it and they keep a beady eye that what was painstakingly agreed is stuck to.

Consequently the EU is not good at responding quickly to new crises. It's just not well set up for that. That wasn't it's purpose so that shouldn't be a surprise. Countries are jealous of their sovereignty so the EU is on the one hand hampered by curbs on its powers by this yet on the other expected to quickly respond in a way that requires powers it has not always been granted. If you want it to solve them it means giving it more powers. Until a crisis looms, no-one is prepared to do it, but at that point it is too late. Afterwards, it tends to learn lessons and devise something better to put in place for next time or even put measures in place to avoid the same thing happening again.

Post Brexit the UK ought to be able to respond quickly to new crises and quicker should equal better, but our long term everyday measures will probably be less well considered and legislated for, so ultimately will mean deficiencies compared to the EU. Neither of these has to be true, but probably will.
Thank you Lefty for your lengthy and thought through reply.

I was probably about 55%/45% about what to vote for in 2016 obviously some of the EU practices bring positive benefits such as guaranteed employee holidays, free movement of goods within the EU with limited red tape when processes have been agreed and implemented.

I do accept the EU has to bring a large multitude of interests together. I tend to believe this will be on going problem (opposed to a benefit), For example operating one currency and one economic policy does fill me with a lot of concerns which every EU nation will eventually have to be in, for full EU economic integration. I am not a big government fan and prefer more localised government that is closely to the people it is there for. To me overall it leads to better decision making and less bureaucracy than heavily centralised control. Centralised control to me is leading to a drift to an unhealthy drift to metropolitan centres.
 

SmallTown

Well-known member
Cheers Wee Gord and the more open minded posters. I try to ignore the disrepectful trolls and not take the bait and/or behave like them. To me they are showing their true colours in their posts. They don't want open debate and not interested in listening for positive purposes. More like hacklers. I nearly always show my thinking and tend to show evidence/practice rather than the theory. I accept there can be misunderstandings and I am not perfect at expressing myself, and people will have differences of opinion, but I can 100% reassure everyone I am not a troll or egotist. Possibly I have a weakness in believing in the best of other posters and that others have an open outlook too in that sense I have finding I am misplaced in some instances.

Anyone - When Boro fans go to the Riverside - what words do they see on the painted on the Wall by a local poet near the Bridge Inn?

The words express that around the year 1900 Teesside had world class expertise in bridge building and iron and steel manufacture. Today the area (to me) needs to replicate similar expertise in something of value be it computer software, wind turbines, carbon capture, hydrogen, etc etc. In 1900 Teesside steel products were commonly found all over the world including Europe. This wealth was reflected in expansion of the local and health of local economy even at MFC. I am not doing this to hark back to the past, but its a strong wish for the future. In 2021 its has nothing to do with blue passports and British Empire! which I could not give a toss about, but I am interested developing global expertise in the 2020s and beyond on Teesside. Some might say that could be done in the EU/EEC, and I would not disagree if the right conditions were in place, but it has not really happened has it since 1993? or even 1973? Unless others know different, of course. Please give details if you do. I do listen and willing to change.

Ref problems exporting into the EU in 2021 from GB and highlighting how the EU is making life difficult for some. I am trying to show issues now, and the double standards used by the EU, saying we should not have left is not really helpful or saying I am just niave or I just don't understand and incapable of joining up dots. The thread was about consequences of leaving, some British food producers are being punished from what I can see. Is this accurate to say? is it fair to them, is it morally correct? is it fair to consumers in the EU? Is it helping free trade? Is it increasing economic activity for the benefit of all?
Punishment is entirely and utterly the wrong word. They are being treat accordingly. We voted to leave the EU, then implemented a policy that made us a third country try. The use of the word punishment is pure brexit. Factually incorrect and unnecessarily emotive. Exactly the type of lie the brexit campaign was built on.

Sad to see the same old lies are being repeated again and again. It's an absolute falsehood that the EU is punishing or trying to adversely affect British business. The EU is merely applying the rules that we voted for and we negotiated. We asked for this and we are getting it. You should be better than that
 

LaPennaBianca

Well-known member
Punishment is entirely and utterly the wrong word. They are being treat accordingly. We voted to leave the EU, then implemented a policy that made us a third country try. The use of the word punishment is pure brexit. Factually incorrect and unnecessarily emotive. Exactly the type of lie the brexit campaign was built on.

Sad to see the same old lies are being repeated again and again. It's an absolute falsehood that the EU is punishing or trying to adversely affect British business. The EU is merely applying the rules that we voted for and we negotiated. We asked for this and we are getting it. You should be better than that
Exactly.

It's not EU double standards, it's the UK government having lied and said that we'd have the same trading relationship without the political side. That's not how the EU works and never has been.

It is sad to see people still think that this is the EU 'punishing' the UK. Mostly because that's not going to solve anything for anyone. We can either get with their programme or suffer the consequences. It's not malicious, they just won't change their rules for us - and from their perspective why should they?
 

SmallTown

Well-known member
Exactly.

It's not EU double standards, it's the UK government having lied and said that we'd have the same trading relationship without the political side. That's not how the EU works and never has been.

It is sad to see people still think that this is the EU 'punishing' the UK. Mostly because that's not going to solve anything for anyone. We can either get with their programme or suffer the consequences. It's not malicious, they just won't change their rules for us - and from their perspective why should they?
I'm pretty sure that deep down @Redwurzel is aware that the EU aren't punishing anyone. He just seems one of those lost and wrapped up in all the brexit lies that he feels he has to parrot the same old lies.
 

ThePrisoner

Well-known member
I'm pretty sure that deep down @Redwurzel is aware that the EU aren't punishing anyone. He just seems one of those lost and wrapped up in all the brexit lies that he feels he has to parrot the same old lies.
Mr Wurzel is, as far as I can tell, completely clueless as to what the EU is, what the single market is,, what the customs union is or the absolute basics of international trade. That being the case how can someone come to a rational decision on whether to vote to remain a member or leave and become a third country? I suspect there are tens of millions like him.
 

Liamo

Well-known member
The thread was about consequences of leaving, some British food producers are being punished from what I can see. Is this accurate to say? is it fair to them, is it morally correct? is it fair to consumers in the EU? Is it helping free trade? Is it increasing economic activity for the benefit of all?
British food producers are not being punished - they're being subjected to the established regulations and procedures that are required for non-EU (and non- EFTA/EEA) countries based on whichever agreement they have with the EU. This is exactly what was always going to happen once the UK left the single market.

As far as I can tell, it is completely moral for the EU to apply the agreed-upon rules for trade with all their international trade partners.

Yes, it is fair to consumers in the EU for the EU to continue to ensure that the products they consume, will continue to meet the standards that all EU countries agree they should meet.

As for free trade, the EU was only set up to guarantee free trade within its borders and between its members states - it was not set up to allow products from every other non-EU country to flood in without any controls.

For instance, here's the website for Canadian products being exported to the EU under their so-called "free trade agreement."

Exporting to the EU – A guide for Canadian business

It contains voluminous requirements, regulations and documentation for Canadian food products going to the EU including the checks that are required, such as veterinary inspections for animal products.

The EU was also not set up with the aim of promoting the economic well-being of every non-EU country in ways that might be to the detriment of its member states or citizens, such as allowing unregulated, unchecked food products to enter willy-nilly.

I can't believe that you or anyone else ever thought that after leaving the EU, the single market and the customs union, UK products would continue to be treated as if the UK was still a full member of the EU with all the advantages and privileges that membership provides.

It's an analogy that had been made many times before, but if you have a fee-paying membership in a club, you can't give up that membership, stop paying your dues and then expect to continue with all the same rights and privileges as all the people that are still members.
 

Laughing

Well-known member
But surely this is a direct inevitable consequence of the Tory ideology that privatised energy in the first place. Holding stock is dead money so like so many other businesses the gas companies got rid of it and operate a JIT model.

A few thousand oaps might freeze to death and millions will have to eat uncooked food (if they can find and afford it) but think of the added value for shareholders! I'm betting Reece-Mogg et al are making a killing on this.
Of course it is, it isn't, however, a result of brexit. It is, unashamedly, a result of an inept, corrupt, uncaring government.
 

Redwurzel

Well-known member
British food producers are being punished from what I can see. Is this accurate to say? - RW

To clear misunderstanding amongst some posters - Its a question not a statement.

Obviously some people believe its not a punishment and they are entitled to believe that.
 

HarryVegas

Well-known member
British food producers are being punished from what I can see. Is this accurate to say? - RW

To clear misunderstanding amongst some posters - Its a question not a statement.

Obviously some people believe its not a punishment and they are entitled to believe that.
It's not. We left the club and revert to 'outsider' rules. It was always going to happen. The fact that the people who led the Leave campaign lied about this, along with pretty much everything else, doesn't change anything.
 

festa5

Well-known member
This was always going to the problem with a hard brexit. Hard brexiters promised a have your cake and eat it scenario. The EU were crystal clear from day one this wasn't going to happen.

Not because they wanted to punish us, but because they needed to protect the integrity of the single market and the interests of their member states. One of which was us until recently.

I'm pretty sure if it had been, say, France leaving, we'd not have been trying to convince other members to allow France to enjoy all the benefits with none of the responsibility. We'd have been telling them exactly the same as they've been telling us.

The reason Theresa May couldn't "Get brexit done" was because she allowed herself to be held hostage by the hardline brexit lunatic fringe of her party. But their demands were impossible to meet without causing significant damage to the country. Any half competent politician who has at least a modicum of self respect realised leaving the single market was going to be a disaster. But the only way she could satisfy the ERG and other fanatics was with her "red lines" particularly ending freedom of movement.

Hence the never ending "negotiations" where we kept asking for essentially single market access, while being able to ignore a lot of the rules everyone else in it has to abide by. It was an impossible position.

The only "out" for a half competent politician without damaging the country too much, was to **** off the nutcases and agree the terms requires to remain in the single market. Politically very difficult though, because if you agree to all that, you might as well remain a full member and have a say over what happens.

Along comes Boris and it's true, he's probably the only one who could have got the "brexit done" that would satisfy the hardliners. And that's because he simply doesn't give a ****. That's what it took, a politician who didn't care what damage it caused.

The Tories gave us that leader and boy did we decide to back him. Despite pretty much no attempt from him to hide exactly what he was. Kicked out moderates from his own party, tried to illegally prevent parliament having any say and refused to be interviewed. And yet that didn't set alarm bells ringing for anywhere near as many people as it should have.

Utterly F***ing infuriating.
 

Redwurzel

Well-known member
I follow what you are saying Festa5.

Personally, I would be been content for the UK to be a Norway. Norweigans seem to be happy to out of the EU but in the Single Market. As said my prime concern was change was needed for the sake ultimately of the declining UK regions.
 
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festa5

Well-known member
I follow what you are saying Festa5.

Personally, I would be been happy for the UK to be a Norway. Norweigans seem to be happy to out of the EU but in the Single Market. As said my prime concern was change was needed for the sake ultimately of the declining UK regions.

I'd obviously rather have remained. But if we were going to leave then the Norway deal wouldn't have been the end of the world.

I suspect thats where we'll eventually end up. But not after a lot of damage has been done pandering to the likes of the ERG sadly.
 

SmallTown

Well-known member
British food producers are being punished from what I can see. Is this accurate to say? - RW

To clear misunderstanding amongst some posters - Its a question not a statement.

Obviously some people believe its not a punishment and they are entitled to believe that.
It's not a "belief" it's not a punishment. It's a stone cold fact. Look how the EU treats every single third country. Exactly the same way. I can't believe I actually need to explain this but there it is. The EU is acting according to its own rules and to how we asked to be treated. It's really that simple. But lies and emotive language is where the brexit cult live I guess
 

Duffman

Well-known member
As emotive and divisive today as it was when the referendum took place. Views have become completely entrenched and very few people prepared to reflect or consider the bigger picture just yet. Time will tell as the non Brexit issues settle whether it was a good move or not which is also probably around the time of the next election. Sadly however the press will no doubt again seek to skew the debate and the way people vote with the outcome dictated by 3 or 4 editors rather people taking the time to look into the detail themselves. The Sun, Express, Mail etc. will no doubt determine the next election
 

Redwurzel

Well-known member
As well as been very divisive and emotive - I have noticed a group of posters posters that love to label people up and pigeon hole them. Brexiters (assumed to be right wing Tories and old) or Remoaners (left wing Labour and young) etc.
 

SmallTown

Well-known member
As well as been very divisive and emotive - I have noticed a group of posters posters that love to label people up and pigeon hole them. Brexiters (assumed to be right wing Tories and old) or Remoaners (left wing Labour and young) etc.
I don’t assume brexiters are right wing tories. I simply assume they are idiots. Or liars
 
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