YouGov Poll - 33 Point lead!

Capy, as my Irish grandmother used to yell at me.

“Son there’s a difference between scratching yer årse, and tearing it to pieces”😉
 
Capybara said:
You see that's my (main) problem with Keir Starmer. If he set out a bold vision for the future he'd have the young uns going out and voting for Labour this time and for the next generation. Instead he's chasing the votes of old people who switched five years ago, many of whom are dead already. It's just so timid.
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This, in spades. Was worth the repetition.

All this super-serious don't-rock-the-boat middle-manager posturing is just a massive uninspiring turn-off. Blair had charisma. Starmer has none. You have to take people along with you.

But power for the sake of power is the order of the day and we'll just have to wait and see how it gets used (or abused).
 
LessoftheLip said:
So you don't think the Lib Dems had anything to do with the u-turns? Or the SNP, or the weight of public opinion, or the constituents of Tory MPs when they returned for weekend surgeries, or focus groups, or relevant industry bodies?
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No. That's not how it works politically. Otherwise you could quite reasonably argue that no opposition party ever caused a U-turn.

Keeping the weight of public opinion focused on an issue is what counts. Which is where Corbyn was good and Starmer is appaling - energy, water, food inflation etc. Corbyn would have been banging the drum and saying how Labour could and would do it differently. Starmer's current plan seems to be do it the same, but 'better' - whatever that means.

LessoftheLip said:
The claim by BBG was that "Corbyn forced u-turns". I've asked you both for evidence and neither of you has produced a shred. You've provided lists and links produced by left wing organisations connected to Corbyn but it's clear that you haven't done any research yourself and are just parroting speculative claims. I'm holding you to the same level of scrutiny as you do to others making a claim about Starmer and the Labour Party now so don't moan about it.
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I'm not sure you understand what research is. You asked for evidence and I've provided it from two sources. If you don't agree with the evidence then the onus is on you to explain why. And calling out 'left wing organisations' isn't enough. You need to find something that contradicts the evidence itself. The articles collated by Skwakbox are from a whole host of publications - are you suggesting they're all 'left wing'?
 
Scrote said:
No. That's not how it works politically. Otherwise you could quite reasonably argue that no opposition party ever caused a U-turn.

Keeping the weight of public opinion focused on an issue is what counts. Which is where Corbyn was good and Starmer is appaling - energy, water, food inflation etc. Corbyn would have been banging the drum and saying how Labour could and would do it differently. Starmer's current plan seems to be do it the same, but 'better' - whatever that means.
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I can quote you over 30 u-turns Boris Johnson made in a little over 18 months while Keir Starmer was leader of the Labour Party. I've never seen anyone claim that this was a result of Keir Starmer, on his own, forcing them on Johnson. And this while The Conservatives had the luxury of an 80 seat majority gifted to them by Corbyn.
So given your logic, you're quite happy to give Starmer credit for forcing those u-turns yes?

Scrote said:
I'm not sure you understand what research is. You asked for evidence and I've provided it from two sources. If you don't agree with the evidence then the onus is on you to explain why. And calling out 'left wing organisations' isn't enough. You need to find something that contradicts the evidence itself. The articles collated by Skwakbox are from a whole host of publications - are you suggesting they're all 'left wing'?
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Patronising again. It's not evidence that Corbyn forced u-turns. It's a list of u-turns made with no reference or credit given to Corbyn whatsoever. The second list is a screen grab with no opportunity to drill down and see the detail. So I don't agree with the evidence that you have put forward and I've explained why. You've also failed to substantiate your claim that Corbyn spoke at more Remain events than other Labour MP. Just saying something doesn't qualify it as 'evidence'.
 
Scrote said:
Keeping the weight of public opinion focused on an issue is what counts. Which is where Corbyn was good and Starmer is appaling - energy, water, food inflation etc. Corbyn would have been banging the drum and saying how Labour could and would do it differently. Starmer's current plan seems to be do it the same, but 'better' - whatever that means.
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I think there is merit in what you have said there but why do you think Starmer is doing so well in the opinion polls and apparently gaining the support of voters that Corbyn couldn’t reach? That’s a genuine question.
 
HolgateCorner said:
I think there is merit in what you have said there but why do you think Starmer is doing so well in the opinion polls and apparently gaining the support of voters that Corbyn couldn’t reach? That’s a genuine question.
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The former is largely to do with the Tories and where the nation is. Corbyn was 'unlucky' to take over just in time for Brexit. Starmer was 'lucky' be heading into an election after 15 years of the worst government in living memory. Some of it is down to Starmer being seen as a safe-pair-of-hands and that leads into the latter part.

Corbyn was a socialist of long-standing. There was enough 'dirt' for the media to turn large sections of the population against him. There is also the very simple explanation that Starmer has eradicated any dissent within Labour and doesn't have a PLP actively working against him. The image of Labour is clearer for people. The noises coming out around policy are also favourable to the voters that Corbyn was never going to reach. Whether you think that's a good thing or not depends on where you stand politically.

The problems for Starmer (and Labour) will surface when the Tories have had time to regroup. The mainstream media will very quickly forget recent history and anything other than centrist to right-of-centre policy from Labour will be savaged. Without offering anything to the left it's highly likely that they'll end up losing support from both ends of the politcal spectrum. It's going to be a rough ride - especially for the people that are already struggling.
 
Scrote said:
The former is largely to do with the Tories and where the nation is. Corbyn was 'unlucky' to take over just in time for Brexit. Starmer was 'lucky' be heading into an election after 15 years of the worst government in living memory. Some of it is down to Starmer being seen as a safe-pair-of-hands and that leads into the latter part.

Corbyn was a socialist of long-standing. There was enough 'dirt' for the media to turn large sections of the population against him. There is also the very simple explanation that Starmer has eradicated any dissent within Labour and doesn't have a PLP actively working against him. The image of Labour is clearer for people. The noises coming out around policy are also favourable to the voters that Corbyn was never going to reach. Whether you think that's a good thing or not depends on where you stand politically.

The problems for Starmer (and Labour) will surface when the Tories have had time to regroup. The mainstream media will very quickly forget recent history and anything other than centrist to right-of-centre policy from Labour will be savaged. Without offering anything to the left it's highly likely that they'll end up losing support from both ends of the politcal spectrum. It's going to be a rough ride - especially for the people that are already struggling.
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I think all of that is a fair analysis. With regard to what happens if Labour win the election I think that is the time for Starmer to be bold and ignore the right wing media and concentrate on improving the lives of working people. Look at the Raynor thing just now, the right wing will run down Labour whatever policies they pursue, left or right, because they want their hands on the power.
 
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